Awesome information! Quick question: is there no need to replace the chain? On m62tu by the time the tensioner/guides give out, chains have stretched and need to be replaced because of all the slack. Is it not the case on the newer motors?

 

I think it depends on the mileage of the car. High mileage obviously means more stretch but I cant say at what mileage this becomes a problem. One thing I did not look at is whether the chains can be removed using this shortcut method. Pity.

The difference between this tensioner problem and the BMW problem is all of the components are still intact on this motor unlike the BMW in which the guides are normally lying in the bottom of the sump. So the slack in the chain is not much but enough to cause a rattle and obviously enough to destroy the engine when they eventually wear enough to cause the chain to jump teeth. On my motor using a pick tool you could lift the chain around 5 to 10mm away from the guide rail. But thats at one point so overall the slack was not much.

High mileage cars may have noisy variable cam components as well as stretched chains so perhaps all the parts in the mechanism should be changed but once again that depends on the motor condition.

 

Great job! I did not realize that the zip-tie method was an official JLR procedure, so that's good to know.

 

For those of us non-DIY type, can we get an accurate price on what the indie shops charge (or should charge) for the job? I hear anywhere from $3000 to $8000! I'm in Los Angeles area.

 

Outstanding, thank you.

 

Thanks for the write-up, timing couldn't have been anymore perfect. My engine just through p0016 and p0018 codes.

 

Thanks GT40!

Sent from my G8441 using Tapatalk

 

NOTE if after doing this job you still have the diesel noise you will need to replace the cam phasers.
this requires the whole job to be be done again.
I strongly suggest that the phasers be replaced along with the tensioners the guides the chains.

 

While I do agree that replacing the whole lot may be a good idea on a high mileage vehicle, I think its an overkill on others. Noisy cam phasers may be a bit annoying but I think that the number one aim with sorting out the timing chain guide/tensioners is making sure that the engine does not get damaged when the inevitable happens. I have 3 other 5.0L vehicles in my yard with damaged engines due to the chains jumping teeth. 2 of which are destroyed and one may be salvageable. The damage has nothing to do with with cam phasers.

If money and time are no object then definitely do the whole lot. And you might as well do the supercharger snout because it will be getting noisy sooner or later. And the fuel pumps and vacuum pump for the same reason. And a bunch of other components that will be wearing out eventually. The time and cost of doing the tensioner job is a fraction of the cost of doing everything. Having done the job once I am sure I could comfortably do the tensioner/guide swap in 5 or 6 hours provided I had all the parts and tools ready and provided I did not encounter any other snags along the way.

 

An example of what can happen when an engine lets go. I bought the car like this so have no idea what happened but I would have loved to have seen the look on the drivers face when it broke. (I doubt its related to the timing chain guide wear but you never know).

Thats looking down the plug hole with my endoscope. I guess the rest of the piston is lying in the sump or maybe even on the road somewhere. I have not investigated yet to see if the engine has any holes in it but I am sure there must be one or two. Car is a 2010 L322 SC with 40000 miles on the clock from new and is in showroom condition. Goodness knows how the previous owner managed to do that.

Lucky I have a spare engine sitting waiting patiently.

 

Ghur
Am I correct in thinking no need to R&R the supercharger and valve covers using this procedure? Had a quick looksie through the PDF....
Looks like I have a bad tensioner from me replacing everything not long ago, like a month!!
No codes, live data shows the cam timing within a degree or two side to side, but a noise at startup from cold now. I'm thinking a tensioner losing pressure so the check valve is not working. After a second, literally, it goes away. Only happens on cold startup

Martin

 

Yes no need to remove them. Everything is accessible after removing the upper and lower timing chain covers.

I am a bit confused by the tensioners. My initial understanding is they have a ratchet mechanism that prevents them returning to the compressed position unless they are first fully extended. I just checked one of my new tensioners against an old one and there seems to be a mechanism that makes it difficult for them to be compressed but it can be overcome if you squeeze hard. I wonder if this indicates a faulty tensioner. Perhaps yours is similar but I cant say whether this is the way they are supposed to operate.

Did you replace the cam sprockets when you did the job?

 

I followed the guide instructions when installing the tensioners. Fully extend, put the grenade clip back in, then release the clip once installed. I did have to give it a tap to make it pop out again once installed.
I replaced everything, thinking I was saving future hassle!
The 4 phasers/actuators/sprockets, both chains, tensioners and all guides. Rebuilt the SC snout and filled with new oil. Water pump. Plugs. New injector seals. Think that's about it
The tensioners seemed a little idiotic to me. Having to fully extend before install, then retract, then clip, then install, then extend. I had to give a LR4 I did the same tap when I did that one. The plunger didnt pop out after pulling the clip, but tapping with a drift popped it out against the guide.

Yes no need to remove them. Everything is accessible after removing the upper and lower timing chain covers.

I am a bit confused by the tensioners. My initial understanding is they have a ratchet mechanism that prevents them returning to the compressed position unless they are first fully extended. I just checked one of my new tensioners against an old one and there seems to be a mechanism that makes it difficult for them to be compressed but it can be overcome if you squeeze hard. I wonder if this indicates a faulty tensioner. Perhaps yours is similar but I cant say whether this is the way they are supposed to operate.

Did you replace the cam sprockets when you did the job?

 

Browsed your thread, but I'll be reading in in great detail tonight. Thanks!

How long would you say it took you to do the job?

 

Browsed your thread, but I'll be reading in in great detail tonight. Thanks!

How long would you say it took you to do the job?

I did it over a couple of days because I had to get my crank locking tool modified half way through the job, so it hard to say the number of hours. I would guess at 8 hours work but the first time is always the longest. I spent quite a bit of time working out how to short cut the Land Rover procedures. As always Macgyver stepped in to help.

 

I had a chance to read your thread with more detail. You need a new crank bolt, correct? Would you have the PN for that bolt? A few other q's below if you don't mind

5. I did not use the crank locking tool as per the procedure to lock the crank via the ring gear. This is just to temporarily secure the crank to remove the pulley inner torx bolts when shown in the procedure. There are easier ways to lock it.

So you didn't have to remove the starter? How then did you lock the flexplate or prevent the crank from turning?

7. I finally refitted the pulley by gently tapping it on by holding a large socket against the inner face of the pulley and carefully hitting it with a hammer until it was definitely on straight and moving gradually and then using the old crank bolt to pull it on. Finally swapping the bolts with the new one to fully tighten. The LR tightness is insane. I could only manage the 200NM followed by around 45 degrees. The procedure requires 270 degrees. Impossible with a 1/2 inch tool. Will be doing it again once my 3/4 drive 24mm deep reach socket arrives.

Does that mean you didn't use the long installation tool that looks like just a very long bolt? I'm wondering if there's enough clearance to use that tool without removing the radiator. It's crazy that the complete "tool kit" for the timing job is more expensive than the actual timing kit.

I fitted 2 zip ties to each bank in turn because I had read about breaking zip ties and the nightmare involved to put it right but as long as they are good quality you should be fine with one.

Zip tie brand you used?

 

I had a chance to read your thread with more detail. You need a new crank bolt, correct? Would you have the PN for that bolt? A few other q's below if you don't mind

PN for the bolt is LR011952 but check the numbers stamped on the end to make sure you do get the correct one. It should say 12.9 which is left hand thread. The old one cant be reused.

So you didn't have to remove the starter? How then did you lock the flexplate or prevent the crank from turning?

To be quite honest I dont remember how I locked it. But it wasnt difficult. Those torx bolts that secure the outer part of the pulley are not very tight.

Does that mean you didn't use the long installation tool that looks like just a very long bolt? I'm wondering if there's enough clearance to use that tool without removing the radiator. It's crazy that the complete "tool kit" for the timing job is more expensive than the actual timing kit.

There is a surprising amount of room between the radiator and the pulley. I should have taken photos but got too involved doing the job. I cant say for certain whether the radiator can stay in place when using the correct instalation tool but I am sure it can. I had sufficient space to be able to swing a 4 lb hammer to tap the pulley back on because I did not have the tool.

Zip tie brand you used?

I bought the zip ties online in China - no name brand. Its important that one rotates the crank exactly as it says in the prcedure to ensure that the cams are in the correct position so that none of the lobes are under tension which may allow the cams to suddenly jump once the tensioners are no longer keeping the chain tight. I think that in this position even if a zip tie broke nothing would happen. The nightmare stories most likely happened because the jobs were done with the cam lobes under tension.

 

Hi,

my Lr4 is from 2010 and has 231k km on the odo. Last year I have the Landy imported from Canada to me in Germany The tensioner and guides work was done at 2016 at 170 k km. But now I have sometimes a tickling at warm idle. And in the last 2 months was 4 times the yellow engine light on in the dash for a short time and in the workshop say to me it was camshaft issue on right bank. When the car is very cold in the morning it starts quite and have a littler higher calm idle. When I start to drive idle is normal.
Sometimes I have a whining noise at 1700 to 2300 rpm.
Now I hope I must not do the timing job again.
Has anybody any ideas?

Thanks, Michael.

 

For future reference - I have a 2011 5.0 S/C RR and can say that with at least one of the ~$200 eBay toolsets, the long puller bolt cannot fit with the radiator in, probably maxes out at an angle of 30 degrees when trying to fit in unless I'm just totally brain dead. I'm considering cutting the end of the bolt as it doesn't seem to need to be that long, would use double-stacked nuts to turn the bolt.

A tip if you want the crank to be easier to remove is to use a torque multiplier. A 3.5x one is about $200 on Amazon, makes it fairly easy to untighten (and easily fits with narrow clearance vs. an impact gun).

Wow, to get the radiator out you have to remove the headlights and front bumper!? What a pain.

 

I realize this is an old thread but it is INVALUABLE for those of us needing to do this repair. I am grateful for it and in everyone's debt. I just finished this procedure (haven't quite put it all back together yet) and wanted to clarify a couple steps and add some short cuts. This all relates to 2010-2012 L322s.

1) We all must realize the procedure listed in the attached PDF is written assuming we have done some things a lot might not have done and one is - REMOVING THE SPARK PLUGS. I skipped this at first and when I went to put the crank pulley bolt back in to crank clockwise to find TDC I cranked it to the spec for this in the PDF which was 20NM and WRONG. The torque for this step should be 50NM (see any other 5.0 service manual) but even then the bolt always loosened when trying to crank it. It's then I realized they determined this torque assuming you have removed the spark plugs. So after doing that, the crank turned over easily with the 50NM of torque applied to the bolt.

2) newmanium's post above is correct - there is no way using the proper LR style pulley removal tool kit that you can get the long removal bolt in without removing the radiator. It's just an impossibility , full stop. I'm sure there are other crank pullers that can do it but mine was the LR style. So reading the manual for the radiator removal you'll find they want you to remove the bumper, the lights, the hood latch panel and some even suggest removing the condenser which of course involves evacuating the AC. Thinking I needed to do this, I chickened out 4 months ago when I heard my first chain tick. But after finally getting the dreaded startup misfire code the other morning I realized I had to dive in. The good news is, you DO NOT have to remove the bumper, the lights and certainly not any of the AC to get the radiator out. You just have to remove the hood latch panel and you don't even need to disconnect the latching wires underneath it. From there you can free everything blocking the radiator and it will just slip up and out. Truly, the whole process only took me 15 minutes as all the hoses are disconnected anyway. And there's so much more room with that radiator out of the way. What I did do was chip off a bit of the plastic frame that curves around the bottom main radiator hose as the curve was preventing it from sliding out easily (you'll see what I mean when you get there). It doesn't harm anything and makes getting it in and out a hell of a lot easier.

3) The top RH valve cover bolt that part of the fuel rail assembly slips over was so long it makes it impossible to lift off the fuel rail assembly without disconnecting unions further down the line. I realized it was only about 1/4" too long so I hack sawed off the top tip (which is not threaded) and cleaned up the remaining threads. This changes nothing in terms of the security and the mounting of the fuel rail but made it effortless to get it up and out of the way.

4) The Timing Tensioner Defect Itself: Having now done this I realize what the problem is. My particular 5.0 at 120k was running perfectly. Looking through the oil fill spout I would probe my chains weekly and they were super tight, never even once were they loose. But upon dismantle the tensioners were totally shot. So peeking at the chains and knowing they are tight is not buying you time, it is delaying the inevitable as I realize now ALL 5.0 V8s will have this issue, some later than others depending on the service interval and oil type, but they are all going to die by tensioner failure if you don't get at them. As many have posted, the tensioner digs into the soft aluminum on the old guides and then extends enough so that it can no longer keep proper tension BUT in the process of doing that the tensioner pin gets wedged into the hole it has been digging and gets twisted side to side as the guide moves which ultimately fouls the pin in its bore. The ratcheting mechanism that's in there that functions to keep tension when the engine is off and the oil has bled out will then no longer work. In most cases the tensioner is wedged into the bore enough that it won't just fall to the bottom but sometimes it does and when that happens of course there is no tension on the chain at start up and disaster is possible. BOTH my tensioners could not retract freely nor would either one's ratcheting mechanism work as it had been distorted from having the pin wedged into the guide for all those miles. So my theory is it's not the pin hyperextending. It's the pin dropping at some point down into the bore at a distorted angle and getting stuck enough that even hydraulic pressure won't free it. In any case, IMHO there is no preventive maintenance that can change this. It a s*** design. JLR knew it for years, did nothing about it and for this reason I have zero respect for them. FWIW, the changeover for these new tensioners and guides was not 2013. Plenty of 2013 and 2014s have this issue as it was in the early months of 2014 (April, May?) that the assembly line finally changed over to the new parts. So if you have a 2014 5.0 RR that was built in late 2013 I'd bet money you will have this issue. A fairly simple way to tell is fish a bore cam through the oil fill spout towards either the LH guide or tensioner and hunt for the part number stamped on its side. You don't have to see all of it, just the starting two alpha characters. It they are not "FX" you have the old tensioners and guides. As a used RR buying guide tip to know what you're buying ahead of time, find a crack copy of the 2014 LR Microcat parts catalogue. In 2014 LR had not updated all its catalogues to show only the new guides and tensioners for 2010+ 5.0 V8s, they just show you what part number came with the car. So if you enter in the vin and search for the tensioner or the guide it will load up the part your engine had when new. This is why I am not sure of the changeover as I am just entering vins for cars I might want to buy but I have never entered in a 2013 vin that had the new parts nor have I ever found a Jan, Feb 2014 build that had the new parts. The first I found was an April 2014 with the new parts. Do your homework on this one. If someone has the old guides/tensioners on a car I'm looking at I ask for 3-5k off the price or walk away.

5) Tensioner install: I chose to not remove the pin until I installed rather that extending and collapsing the tensioner and replacing the pin. This seemed to work fine but when I cranked it over by hand 2 revolutions the tensioners made a click that freaked me out. So I removed one, extended and collapsed it and reinstalled. It made the same click. Which I finally realized was NORMAL. When installing new tensioners of course they are free of oil so hydraulics are not in play. It's only the ratcheting mechanism that is applying minimal tension and stopping the pin from falling back into the bore (the same as a cold start condition) so you know they are in correctly if you can lever against them and push the pin back about halfway but then meet resistance. As the PDF states, if you can push the pins all the way back into the bore they're installed incorrectly so try again.

6) I removed the RH wheel well plastics and inner lower plastics but realized I could get the starter free and pushed aside to install the flywheel locking tool without doing that. Skip it, saves about an hour.

7) Sealant: The manual calls for Loctite 5901G. Good luck finding it and then paying for it. Permatex Ultra Grey is almost the exact same spec. $7.99.

8) Crank bolt: Always buy a NEW one as the manual warns. My 2010 had a head gasket job done at a dealer before I bought it. The guy did a phenomenal job but used the old bolt. It actually spun off! Thank God the pulley stayed put or I would have been junking the car. And spend the money on a torque multiplier. You'll use it for so many things, it's just great to have around. Torqueing the crank pulley bolt that extra 270 degrees is just effortless using it.

9) Checking the timing. Ages ago I bought the fuel pump timing plug and never used it. So after installing the tensioners, I cranked by hand twice until the crank keyway was at 6 oclock, the crank sensor tool fit snugly in the flywheel and the fuel pump timing plug slipped into its slot. Not essential but it gave me piece of mind. However, I will have to circle back and delete this post if at start up the engines implodes.

Again, thanks to all who contributed to this thread. I would have never attempted this without you.

 

How bad is the job? Say, compared to doing the timing chains and tensioners on V8 4.0 Jag? How many hours? Some vendors state that the direct injection chain might stretch as well, and replacing it will require removing engine from the truck. How often does that happen? I know that there are JLR technicians on this forum

 

Would this procedure also Apply to the 4.4L in a 2008 Sport HSE ???
If not can someone point me to the procedure for that motor ?

vehicle started putting up P0016 code about a week ago, I replaced the Crank and Cam position sensors.
Cleared the codes and the light and codes came back on in less than 20 miles...

 

Would this procedure also Apply to the 4.4L in a 2008 Sport HSE ???
If not can someone point me to the procedure for that motor ?

vehicle started putting up P0016 code about a week ago, I replaced the Crank and Cam position sensors.
Cleared the codes and the light and codes came back on in less than 20 miles...

I can't answer your question, as I haven't done the procedure. But I think its important to note that this procedure is designed for replacing the original tensioner and guide with the newer design that lasts longer on the 5.0 engine. It assumes that the chain and other hardware are in good shape. What mileage are you at? Its my understanding that on the 4.4, the life of the tensioners and guides are more similar to that of the chain so if you are having issues and are tearing it down, you should replace all the parts including the chain. In which case, this shortcut wouldn't apply.

 

May I confirm that before installing a new tensioner, one should pull the pin out, let the piston extend all the way, then compress it back with channel locks, reinsert the pin back, install the tensioner onto the engine, pull the chain guide away and then pull the pin out again?

Also, did you use a generic, Autozone harmonic balancer puller to remove the crank pulley?

 

In theory the tensioners should already be "loaded" correctly but I always do as you say just for peace of mind. But you must make sure to compress the piston as deep as possible. It needs to depress beyond the point where it is flush with the tensioner body so you need to use a small spacer of some sort to ensure that this happens. Then one can insert the pin and release the pressure. I will try to find the short video showing this.

The official method is to depress it until you can fit the pin, then depress it further as mentioned above.

I use a modified pulley removal kit from the 4.2 engine but I am sure a generic puller will work. The tool to hold the pulley when loosening and tightening the pulley bolt needs to be substantial due to the very high torque setting.

 

Thank you! Invaluable!!!
The question about the puller is all about the avoidance of the radiator removal )!

 

Search on Google for the "Jaguar 4.2 pulley removal kit" and you will see the size of the puller that I use. No need to remove the radiator.

I have never used the correct kit for the 5.0 engine but I understand that it needs a bit of trimming to avoid radiator removal.

 

By the way, this guy in Gettysburg, PA who uses the zip line method to replaces the guides and the tensioners doesn’t remove the water pump. Instead apparently he removed the vacuum pump and it allows him to remove the crankshaft cover! I saw it in the comments.

 

That is correct - no need to remove the water pump - only the vacuum pump.

 

Lots of great info, thanks!

I cut an inch off my puller to get it in with the rad in place. Seems to have worked out ok....

So... 2010 RRSC threw the "reduced performance" with p0019. I drove her home very gently...

Got the lower cover off and think I found my problem...

With the ziptie method, I think replacing just the tensioners is pretty straightforward.

But... Is there any way to verify the timing without the full pulldown? I think the gist of the ziptie method is to make sure the chains stay where they are. If I did jump a tooth I'll still have a problem, no?

And if the tensioners are replaced I may then have more collision?

If I scope the cylinders and don't find anything, then spin it by hand and don't feel any crunches, is it reasonable to think it's in time? Or at least won't damage anything further?

Is it strange that Atlantic British doesn't carry the crank bolt that is supposed to be replaced? Seems like it would be part of their complete kit if they believed it was necessary...

Appreciate any opinions. Of course, the full meal deal is the right thing to do, but compared to book value on this truck... I've never been inside one of these before, but except for the two obvious problems in the pic, everything looks pretty good to me.

 

Lots of great info, thanks!

I cut an inch off my puller to get it in with the rad in place. Seems to have worked out ok....

So... 2010 RRSC threw the "reduced performance" with p0019. I drove her home very gently...

Got the lower cover off and think I found my problem...

That is what can happen if the motor is turned in an anti clockwise direction. The plastic part of the tensioner has a "hook" shaped lower end to prevent it from moving.

Perhaps you turned it anti clockwise at some point? Maybe while you were dismantling? In which case the displaced parts of the tensioner are not the cause of your reduced performance code.