[RRPhil]

Not to worry, I think I’m with you now! You’re referring to the 180 degree protuberance cast into the clutch drum around the support bush :

I believe that ZF have added that feature specifically for the reason that you stated i.e. it makes you aware that something’s not right if you happen to put the axial bearing in upside down! :

The face of the support bush is hardened and ground and is designed for the needle rollers to run directly on it, so the bearing washer sits on top like this :

and therefore on the C-clutch drum like this :

Phil

 

[torqueni]

So phill just to make sure coller in then washer on top

 

[torqueni]

Ah phill settled the head and have it worked out from ur pics thanks phil i have another problem the output shalf has an oring on it what bag number does this oring come in i have one oring left it is out of bag 1 this oring is looks a slight bit smaller i just want to make sure

 

[RRPhil]

The O-ring that you have left over from bag 1 will be for the oil filter.

As I mentioned in post #24 in this thread, the output shaft O-ring for the L322 isn't in the kit - you have to buy it separately.

Phil

 

[RRPhil]

So, should I also replace the b clutch hub?

I guess its also best to replace all the bearngs even if the others look ok?

Thanks for the help!

John

It shouldn’t be necessary to replace the B-clutch hub just because the three pads are worn. Once the worn bearing is replaced the pads will just be paddling in fresh air again.

If you can afford to replace all five ‘front’ axial needle roller bearings then that’s great but, if not, you at least need to detach the needle cage from the steel washer on each to ensure that the washer isn’t pitting underneath :

Just wondering, have you separated the A-clutch & B-clutch assemblies to check if the O-ring has split?

Phil

 

[torqueni]

Thanks phill i forgot about i have it in the box here phill can u take a look at this oil on ebay its lt71141 item number 370377267109

 

[RRPhil]

Your choice, obviously, but I personally wouldn’t risk those multi-purpose fluids which claim to meet the specification of LT71141 and Dexron in the same product (as they use different friction modifier packs). These fluids are used by garages primarily for inventory reduction. The only fluid approved for your 5HP24 is the Mobil product (badged by ZF as Lifeguard Fluid 5). The cheapest I’ve seen it recently (for 1 litre bottles) is eBay item number 130831999010

Phil

 

[torqueni]

Phil how many liters do i need

 

[terreneuve]

Thank you Phil I will check those issues.

One thing I am a bit confused with is how does the carrier plate stay off the drum as it seems to fit over the outside lip of the bearing race?

 

[torqueni]

Phil sorry for all the questions but when i built the oil pump i was left with a black coller /washer in bag 2 i looked al over the pump anf cant see where it goes is this to fit in another type of box

 

[RRPhil]

I can’t be sure without seeing a photo but the ‘black collar’ from bag 2 may be the cast iron sealing ring for the torque converter feed that sits behind the needle roller bearing in the snout of the oil pump housing. Is it a very snug fit if you slide it onto the oil pump drive tube sticking out of the torque converter?

Fluid capacity of the 5HP24 from dry is 10 litres, not including the cooler and its feed and return pipes. (If the torque converter has been remanufactured then it will be dry).

Phil

 

[ds003]

New here, with a question or two on the 5HP24. I am rebuilding mine, with rebuild kit less steels, and found nothing that would explain a little slip then slamming into gear 1st to 2nd gear. I did find small heat marks on the A clutch steels, so replaced them.

No visually bad O-rings, and the -016 needle bearing looked great (replacing it anyway).

I have read all I can find on many forums, and learned a LOT (mostly from RRPhil on multiple forums) before even pulling the trans out.

I did a Pressure Regulator Valve vacuum test on the valve body, and got 13-14" vacuum, so I am getting a Sonnax oversized valve put into the housing.

I did put in a valve body rebuild kit, everything pulled out looked good though.

Questions related to the air test of the clutches using a test plate I made:

1: I get leakage between clutch A and B, have checked everything a couple times, O-rings, and all clutches measured and spaced properly. I see that the only thing between the flow passages for A and B is the rotary seal ring on the nose of the Stator shaft. If I pressurize B on the test plate, I get some air escaping through the A port, and also the reverse. May I assume that air leakage between A and B is normal, and will seal better when oil is involved? When I test D, E, and F, it is a solid clutch actuation, with no leakage.

2: I get a LOT of air blow by when I pressurize clutch C. I have pulled the tower, and pressurized C with the tower on the bench, and the clutch works, but a lot of air escapes Through the center hub. I measured the bushings in the sun gear shaft that have to contain the air to the C clutch, and find one with 0.004" clearance, the other with 0.005", which seems pretty large to me. Is it? (I have just ordered a bushing kit from Omega Machine, "http://www.omegamachine.com/db/ZF5HP24%20bushing%20kit.asp") and will replace most of the bushings in the transmission. Omega claims much tighter bushing fits than stock.

Are the air test results abnormal?

 

[RRPhil]

Thank you Phil I will check those issues.

One thing I am a bit confused with is how does the carrier plate stay off the drum as it seems to fit over the outside lip of the bearing race?

View attachment 14949

The clearance between the three pads and the carrier plate is determined by a tolerance stack up of 16 different dimensions :

Whenever I’ve stripped a 5HP24 transmission to find that the pads have made metal-to-metal contact it has invariably been caused by the reduction in the ‘H’ dimension due to wear in the 1058 202 016 bearing

Phil

 

[RRPhil]

New here, with a question or two on the 5HP24. I am rebuilding mine, with rebuild kit less steels, and found nothing that would explain a little slip then slamming into gear 1st to 2nd gear. I did find small heat marks on the A clutch steels, so replaced them.

No visually bad O-rings, and the -016 needle bearing looked great (replacing it anyway).

I have read all I can find on many forums, and learned a LOT (mostly from RRPhil on multiple forums) before even pulling the trans out.

I did a Pressure Regulator Valve vacuum test on the valve body, and got 13-14" vacuum, so I am getting a Sonnax oversized valve put into the housing.

I did put in a valve body rebuild kit, everything pulled out looked good though.

Questions related to the air test of the clutches using a test plate I made:

1: I get leakage between clutch A and B, have checked everything a couple times, O-rings, and all clutches measured and spaced properly. I see that the only thing between the flow passages for A and B is the rotary seal ring on the nose of the Stator shaft. If I pressurize B on the test plate, I get some air escaping through the A port, and also the reverse. May I assume that air leakage between A and B is normal, and will seal better when oil is involved? When I test D, E, and F, it is a solid clutch actuation, with no leakage.

2: I get a LOT of air blow by when I pressurize clutch C. I have pulled the tower, and pressurized C with the tower on the bench, and the clutch works, but a lot of air escapes Through the center hub. I measured the bushings in the sun gear shaft that have to contain the air to the C clutch, and find one with 0.004" clearance, the other with 0.005", which seems pretty large to me. Is it? (I have just ordered a bushing kit from Omega Machine, "http://www.omegamachine.com/db/ZF5HP24 bushing kit.asp") and will replace most of the bushings in the transmission. Omega claims much tighter bushing fits than stock.

Are the air test results abnormal?

Welcome to the forum ds003, and congratulations on such a considered & thorough approach to your rebuild.

1: I agree that the most likely cross-leakage point between the A & B clutch feeds is the 0734 401 248 rotary seal at the end of the stator shaft

Have you used petroleum jelly to retain the seals in their ‘clamped’ position in the grooves?

Clearly with the D, E & F clutch packs all being brakes (to earth) rather than clutches (to connect rotating elements) their static nature means that no rotating seals are required in their hydraulic feed circuits.


2: Regarding the bush clearances which, exactly as you stated, form part of the sealing system for the C-clutch :- The shaft diameter under the bushes will be 31.95mm (the shaft tends not to wear!) and when I check the bush inside diameters from ‘well used’ transmissions (with typically 80k-120k miles) they consistently measure close to 32.02mm diameter, so that’s a diametral clearance of 70 microns i.e. a radial (running) clearance of 35 microns (less than 0.0015” in old money). It does therefore sound as though your bushes are worn. Are there any signs of overheating/lack of lubrication?

Of course the C-clutch is only used for reverse gear – had you been experiencing any issues with reverse?


Phil

 

[ds003]

Welcome to the forum ds003, and congratulations on such a considered & thorough approach to your rebuild.

1: I agree that the most likely cross-leakage point between the A & B clutch feeds is the 0734 401 248 rotary seal at the end of the stator shaft

Have you used petroleum jelly to retain the seals in their ‘clamped’ position in the grooves?

I did on first assembly, using transmission assembly lube, which is stickier than petroleum jelly, but cleaned it out and lubricated them with oil for the second test hoping that the rings were "glued" in the clamped position, but the results were the same.

Clearly with the D, E & F clutch packs all being brakes (to earth) rather than clutches (to connect rotating elements) their static nature means that no rotating seals are required in their hydraulic feed circuits.

Yes, I figured that out. 8>)

2: Regarding the bush clearances which, exactly as you stated, form part of the sealing system for the C-clutch :- The shaft diameter under the bushes will be 31.95mm (the shaft tends not to wear!) and when I check the bush inside diameters from ‘well used’ transmissions (with typically 80k-120k miles) they consistently measure close to 32.02mm diameter, so that’s a diametral clearance of 70 microns i.e. a radial (running) clearance of 35 microns (less than 0.0015” in old money). It does therefore sound as though your bushes are worn. Are there any signs of overheating/lack of lubrication?

No wear visually evident, surfaces smooth. Shaft measures 31.958 mm, so they are good. Bushings definitely worn! I am a recently retired mechanical design engineer, with a few years previous as a Tool and Die Maker, so I have a good understanding of clearances. Glad I ordered the bushing kit! This car has 170K miles, surprised that I found so little visually bad in the unit. The only sign of heating was on the A Clutch steels, which I replaced. All the other steels still showed the original grinding marks and no heating. None of the friction plates were worn appreciably.

I am putting on a new Torque converter, and using Pentosin ATF1 for refill.

Of course the C-clutch is only used for reverse gear – had you been experiencing any issues with reverse?

My wife did say she had experienced slow shifting into reverse a couple times, but not slipping that I am aware of. I assume that the large clearances in the bushings could cause this.

My only real concern now is the leakage between A and B, but in looking at the fluid flow closely, it almost has to be by the seal ring on the stator. Do you get any blow by between A and B when you do an air test? I have checked and adjusted all the clutch clearances (had to order two snap rings), and had to replace the input shaft spacer to get the proper clearance there.

I want to thank you more than I can properly express for your expertise on this transmission, and the willingness to "export" it to the rest of the world so well. Your explanations and pictures on various forums is of professional quality. I think I have read just about every post you have made on the 5HP24 on this and other forums. Because of that, when I opened it up there were no surprises, and I already knew some "tricks", and things to watch for. I have the ZF overhaul document, but your explanations and pictures were invaluable to help "interpret" it all.

I am working on a 740iL BMW, but some of my first searching on the topic led me to this forum, and in later searching found your posts on several other forums as well. You have been a tremendous help to many people.

I will post back after I replace some bushings and re-test.

David S.
near Knoxville, TN, USA

 

[torqueni]

Phill i need a pull out again bag 5 on the diagram for bag 5 im left with 4 small oring and what looks like a spacer with a rubber tip does that go in the valve body what im asking is wheres the orings and spacer with tip and whats look like a we rubber cab al go

 

[terreneuve]

Thanks Phill !!

The clearance between the three pads and the carrier plate is determined by a tolerance stack up of 16 different dimensions :

Whenever I’ve stripped a 5HP24 transmission to find that the pads have made metal-to-metal contact it has invariably been caused by the reduction in the ‘H’ dimension due to wear in the 1058 202 016 bearing

Phil

 

[RRPhil]

Phill i need a pull out again bag 5 on the diagram for bag 5 im left with 4 small oring and what looks like a spacer with a rubber tip does that go in the valve body what im asking is wheres the orings and spacer with tip and whats look like a we rubber cab al go

These components are only required if you rebuild the valve block.

Each of the five pressure regulating solenoids has a damper/accumulator somewhere in its hydraulic circuit. Four of them use a spring loaded piston :

Accumulator/dampers for solenoids 3 & 4

and the other (solenoid 5) uses the rubber component that you identified from bag 5 :

However, the design of this particular damper was changed early in the life of the 5HP24. The later version (which is the one fitted in the Range Rover) uses a rubber-filled metal cylinder with a central ‘pin’) which you will also find in bag 5

The four black O-rings in bag 5 are for the four ‘black top’ solenoids and bag 1 contains a green O-ring for the ‘green top’ solenoid

Phil

 

[ds003]

Well, I have replaced the bushings in the Sun Gear Shaft (1058 202 014), and the air blow by for clutch C is considerably reduced, probably half what it was before. I feel OK about that now.

However, after triple checking everything in the flow paths for clutches A and B, I still get a lot of air flow from one to the other on the test plate.

When I pressurize A, I can hear the clutch actuating, but quite a bit of air is escaping, both through the stator shaft into the bell housing and through port B on the test plate, so assume that the seal rings just do not seal very much under air test, but hopefully will seal better once under oil pressure. I did replace the stator shaft bushing, but there is still enough clearance for air to pass through it.

When I pressurize the B port on the test plate, I get even more air escaping through the A port, so much that I cannot hear the clutch actuate. If I close off the A port on the test plate, I hear the clutch(s) actuate, and then I uncover the A port with pressure still on the B port, the flow reduces, and then if I stop the air flow after a few seconds I hear the B clutch release.

Is this normal for the test plate usage? I can find absolutely nothing in the parts that is wrong, all clearances are proper, and all the O-rings and rotary seal rings are new.

I am using 60 PSI air pressure for the tests.

I have read all I can find on using a test plate, but nowhere have I seen anyone speak of leakages (the way the seals operate though I would expect leakage under air pressure) The ZF literature just states to check for clutch actuation, nothing is mentioned abut possible air leakage on A, B, and C.

This has me stumped. I sure would hate to put the transmission back in only to find out that this is indicative of something wrong that I am not seeing.

 

[torqueni]

Thanks phill box done and in now waiting on lt71141 oil coming i just hope all i done is right input shaft has there to b any movment in it you know the way you do it with the gauge