[lenlo]

Happy to help with timing tools and any help I can provide. So the chain that fell off was one of the timing chains from the crank to the intake sprocket from what I gather due to improperly torqued shoulder bolt on the chain guide?

 

[JOEYBATTS]

It's hars to explaine but the auxiliary fell off and is now resting off the gear on the HPS system.

When I went looking for this issue I found out the timing chains are factory (he said he replaced them). When tearing it down a found a **** tone of finger tight bolts, just a whole lot going on that isn't right, or what I paid for.

 

[JOEYBATTS]

Here's a pic. Brand new chain.

 

[lenlo]

I see it now - Which shoulder bolt came loose? The drivers side tensioner? Check it and make sure the tensioner is not cracked and that the tensioner spring is still in place. There does not appear to be enough clearance for the bolt head with the oil pan to replace it in situ. Passenger side is a fixed blade and can easily be removed to provide slack in the chain. by levering back the tensioner on the drivers side and removing the fixed blade, you should have enough slack to put the chain back on the high pressure fuel pump cam sprocket. With engine at TDC (keyway in 6 o'clock position) the colored link should line up at 12 o'clock on crank sprocket and the other colored link on HPFP sprocket dot around 7 o'clock. The timing tool should fit or be slightly retarded if the chain has stretched.

There is an updated oil jet that has a metal tab. I can only guess that tab is to prevent the chain from skipping P/N LR059161.

 

[JOEYBATTS]

I already tried that. Tensioner is fine, with it don't adding tension I still can't get the thing on. Timings all set and locked in, just not enough room. The aux hain is brand new, tensioner are new all around, he left the stretched timing chains for some reason. There's just not enough room to get it to slip back on the gear, I cant get enough leverage in the right spots to do it.

 

[lenlo]

I was able to create enough slack to move the chain by a tooth easily. There has to be enough slack in the chain to allow you to slip it on. Remove the fixed blade on passenger side and push the tensioner on the drivers side back as far as it will go. I used a right angled pick into one of the holes on the side of the tensioner and compressed the tensioner then put the pick against the other side of the block to hold it compressed in. From there you can turn oil pump sprocket clockwise to make the chain as tight as possible on the drivers side which should give you enough slack on the high pressure fuel pump sprocket side. The chain had enough slack to come off, it should go back on?

The only other options I see are possibly removing the oil pump sprocket, putting the chain on and re-installing the sprocket - Don't know if that's possible given the space available.
or find out if that shoulder bolt on the drivers side tensioner can be removed while the oil pan is installed - There might be enough room?

If neither of those work, I can look into getting a master link machined out of a chain link for you - I was planning on doing that anyway.

 

[lenlo]

Just found this thread on the L320 side. It looks like there is enough room to remove the chain tensioner shoulder bolt with the oil pan in place.

https://www.rangerovers.net/threads/oil-pump-chain-tensioner-removal-without-dropping-pan.360460/

 

[RadiantZucchini]

Jumping in for a random question.. does anyone know what the JLR-303-1621 tool is used for? I'm about to do head gaskets + timing chain job, and this special tool came with my timing kit.. however it doesnt appear anywhere in the workshop manual. Am i missing something? Do i need to lock the fuel pump when timing the engine? As i said, nowhere in the book does it say anything about removing high pressure fuel pump and replacing with this locking tool...

 

[lenlo]

You do not need to remove the HPFPumps. The tool is for checking the timing of the HPFP cam and locking it for service. It is inserted in place of the vacuum pump below front timing cover. You will want to remove the vacuum pump and change the o-ring. You will likely find that your fuel / oil pump timing chain has stretched and the tool will not fit properly unless you advance the HPFP cam. If the tool won't fit, This will likely result in you having to change that chain sometime in the future when it stretches too far or finally jumps a tooth.

Earlier in this post you will find there has been an updated oiler with what appears to be a chain deflector added P/N LR059161

 

[RadiantZucchini]

You do not need to remove the HPFPumps. The tool is for checking the timing of the HPFP cam and locking it for service. It is inserted in place of the vacuum pump below front timing cover. You will want to remove the vacuum pump and change the o-ring. You will likely find that your fuel / oil pump timing chain has stretched and the tool will not fit properly unless you advance the HPFP cam. If the tool won't fit, This will likely result in you having to change that chain sometime in the future when it stretches too far or finally jumps a tooth.

Earlier in this post you will find there has been an updated oiler with what appears to be a chain deflector added P/N LR059161

Yeah right after i commented, i realized that tool goes where the vacuum pump goes, not where the hpfp goes. So if im doing head gaskets + timing chains with the engine in the vehicle, i can ignore that tool, as i wont be retiming the hpfpumps, correct? and you say it wont properly fit unless I advance the hpfp cam.. the only way to do that would be turning the entire engine over, correct? But then the hpfp will be in the correct timing mark, but the rest of the engine will be slighly off of their tdc marks, correct?

 

[Hairy_Ears]

On chain drives "in general":

- The greatest contributor to slack is usually the component with the fewest 'teeth' - they 'work harder' per-each tooth, hence wear faster. Crankshaft sprocket is the prime suspect. Significant gain if that can be replaced.

- Next-up, the drive sprockets on HPFP camshaft and oil pump. Harder to replace, but still... Replacing even ONE is another significant gain.

- The chain might be easier to replace than any of those others, but is otherwise not likely to be a "half-link" off... Not by itself, anyway. It's just reflecting the TOTAL wear 'in your face'.. where it can be most-easily measured..

Ergo I don't see a removable "master link" as resolving the core problem in this case. Tooth shape degradation of the sprockets.

Challenge/Question, then:

Is it possible .....to replace (at least) two out of three of the sprockets, the chain, and (of course!) the tensioner/guide(s)...

.....without .....removing the mill from the chassis?

 

[JoeFish]

@Hairy_Ears your question deserves a bump. I’m putting my engine in TDC to take off crankshaft pulley today and check fuel pump timing and I am expecting this needs to be done. I’m a noob mechanic but certainly going to try my hand at this. I’m filming all of it so at worst I can show what not to do… 🙃

 

[silvertonesx24]

No luck, gave up on it. I could not find any existing master link that would work and couldn't get a press that fit into the space that would reliably mushroom the head - It was close but I didn't feel comfortable enough to risk the engine. Did several tests with a spare chain I bought outside the vehicle. In the end, I left the existing chain knowing that it was stretched by about half a link. It runs perfectly now but I know it's a matter of time before it stretches too far and potentially skips a link. I think the only thing that will work here is a custom master link with a clip on it. If you know of someone with a machine shop that can make a master link out of one of the chain links, I'd be happy to send you a few links out of the chain I was testing with.

I'm going to have to try this somehow. I snapped my chain, and removing the engine is not an option. It's either part out the car, or a master link.

 

[lenlo]

Check out this thread - There appears to be enough room to remove the oil pump chain tensioner shoulder bolt with the oil pan in place.

https://www.rangerovers.net/threads/oil-pump-chain-tensioner-removal-without-dropping-pan.360460/

 

[silvertonesx24]

Check out this thread - There appears to be enough room to remove the oil pump chain tensioner shoulder bolt with the oil pan in place.

https://www.rangerovers.net/threads/oil-pump-chain-tensioner-removal-without-dropping-pan.360460/

I did see this, while I am going to have to do this to give myself room, the only way to thread the new chain in underneath the camshaft will be either to remove the engine (not happening) or modify the new chain as you were attempting to do, so I can insert a split chain, thread it around the gears (this is possible, as it's how I removed the broken one) and then while it is in the engine, rejoin the chain.

I'm considering this method

1. Punched out a link from the old chain with the chain breaker. I got one from the old chain as I didn't want to damage the new chain when removing the pin. I'd use this old pin as my master pin.
2. Used a Dremel to grind the head off a pin on the new chain. This wrecked the pin but ensured I could remove it without damaging the chain links. I then removed that pin and tossed it.
3. With a vice and Dremel I carefully ground off the 'mushroom head' of the pin from the old chain. I didn't shorten the pin, just slightly ground the sides so it would slide through the chain links easily without damaging them.
4. Using a wire hook and a 'grabbing' tool I threaded the chain around the engine's crank sprocket. I then used wire to temporarily link the chain (keeping the links I wanted to join clear of wire of course). I used a screw driver in place of the camshaft for the time being so the chain wouldn't fall back down into the crank case.
5. I used rags to cover the engine as best as possible to prevent anything falling into the crank case. I then used the chain breaker with a flat end punch to just seat the new pin (smooth, grinded side first) in the chain links.
6. Once the pin was seated I took a small hammer and tapped the pin through the link. I had a friend hold the chain against a solid flat metal surface (in my case the side of the chain breaker) to act as a sort of horizontal anvil.
7. With the pin positioned correctly with the hammer (you can tap it back the other way if you've gone too far) I tested the chain to see if the link had become stiff.
8. Finally, using the 'horizontal anvil' technique above I used a rivet punch to re-mushroom the head of the pin. Again I tested the chain to see of it was stiff.
9. Then I replaced the screwdriver with the actual camshaft and sprocket.

How do I re-rivet a chain pin (with a chain breaker tool)?

I've got to replace the timing chain on a XS400 motorcycle. To do this I must break the chain, then connect it back up once it's in position. I've been practicing on the broken chain, which has a...

mechanics.stackexchange.com

 

[silvertonesx24]

important things for sure but you could either use a master link chain or use an OEM "endless" chain with pin driver and swage tools to mount the chain in place. If it saved removing the engine, certainly seems a better way.

I'm going to have to try this. When you say pin driver and swage tools, what are you referring to?

 

[silvertonesx24]

I am also trying to identify a pin press where I could break the new chain and press the pin back in/mushroom it. There are not a lot of options that would fit into the confined space but I'll keep looking. Even this approach presents some risk of not being able to get the new chain on and having to pull the engine. There does appear to be enough room to break the old chain and attach the new chain and feed it around the oil pump sprocket and fuel pump camshaft sprocket then lay it over the crank sprocket. one that lots of motorcycle folks do is to remove a pin from the old chain by grinding around the top of one pin, without affecting it's length, then press that into the link of the new chain and mushroom the end of it. If that works for motorcycles where the risk of a chain separating includes death, it should be good enough for this purpose.

I think you described the exact approach that I want to take here. Where did you give up on this thread? A pin press that would fit? It's not a lot of room to work with for sure.

 

[silvertonesx24]

Update on my predicament

I was able to break the replacement chain, and thread it around the gears, starting with the camshaft, turning that until it reached the oil pump sprocket, and threading it up.

I removed the timing chain plastic guide so that the fuel pump chain tensioner could be bent back further to allow for easier work.

Some will remove that piece but for me it was easier to remove the timing chain tensioner instead.

I tried both a t8 and a bf05t master link

At first t8 showed more promise, being an exact fit except for pins being 3.2mm in diameter instead of 3.0. I thought I could shave them down, first using a drill press with a grinding stone, and then a dremel in a vice. I could never get the pin shaved down evenly enough, and especially at the base, to be confident enough

I then moved on to bf05t, which is slightly too short, and also a lot of sellers send you a t8 link instead of bf05t. I went through 2 before finally getting a legit one from ebay

My master link was a rivet style. I compensated for the lack of height in the pins by shaving the press plate (other side of the link) down by 0.25mm. I glued the plate to a wrench and used a dremel in a vice to do this.

It fit in the chain, and I used a ball peen hammer to rivet the link. I used a metal plate behind the chain as an anvil. This was all done with the engine in place. It'd be easier with the bumper and radiator out but I wasn't doing all that.

I also dabbed a tiny bit of JB weld extreme heat on the riveted pins and plate, just for confidence.

I have yet to button it all up and start it, but so far, I've managed to get some hope that this job is possible without both engine and timing chain removal.

Next is to be sure my chain is on the correct teeth (I have to count the links as you'll never get the marks correct when threading), time the fuel pump, button the rest of it up, and pray

 

[Hairy_Ears]

Update on my predicament

I was able to break the replacement chain, and thread it around the gears, starting with the camshaft, turning that until it reached the oil pump sprocket, and threading it up.

I removed the timing chain plastic guide so that the fuel pump chain tensioner could be bent back further to allow for easier work.

Some will remove that piece but for me it was easier to remove the timing chain tensioner instead.

I tried both a t8 and a bf05t master link

At first t8 showed more promise, being an exact fit except for pins being 3.2mm in diameter instead of 3.0. I thought I could shave them down, first using a drill press with a grinding stone, and then a dremel in a vice. I could never get the pin shaved down evenly enough, and especially at the base, to be confident enough

I then moved on to bf05t, which is slightly too short, and also a lot of sellers send you a t8 link instead of bf05t. I went through 2 before finally getting a legit one from ebay

My master link was a rivet style. I compensated for the lack of height in the pins by shaving the press plate (other side of the link) down by 0.25mm. I glued the plate to a wrench and used a dremel in a vice to do this.

It fit in the chain, and I used a ball peen hammer to rivet the link. I used a metal plate behind the chain as an anvil. This was all done with the engine in place. It'd be easier with the bumper and radiator out but I wasn't doing all that.

I also dabbed a tiny bit of JB weld extreme heat on the riveted pins and plate, just for confidence.

I have yet to button it all up and start it, but so far, I've managed to get some hope that this job is possible without both engine and timing chain removal.

Next is to be sure my chain is on the correct teeth (I have to count the links as you'll never get the marks correct when threading), time the fuel pump, button the rest of it up, and pray

"...dabbed a tiny bit of JB weld extreme heat on the riveted pins and plate, just for confidence. "

The "like" I just granted wasn't for cleverness. It was for brass bal.. err "daring".

You've saved the labour of pulling the needfulls to put an uncut chain into place 'by the book'.

You have also taken-on the risk of early 'masterlink' fail cascading to trashing a significant percentage of 8 pistons and 32 valves if/as/when it sets the bits of that chain into one of the other two chains that eat, sleep, and shag for a crust in the same bunk.

Even ONE clash mean a full teardown/rebuild and significant new parts.

Oil pump also ceases to rotate, oil ceases to circulate. That hopefully stops when the other 'customer' on that chain stops supplying fuel to the injectors and the motor stops.

But still...

 

[silvertonesx24]

"...dabbed a tiny bit of JB weld extreme heat on the riveted pins and plate, just for confidence. "

The "like" I just granted wasn't for cleverness. It was for brass bal.. err "daring".

You've saved the labour of pulling the needfulls to put an uncut chain into place 'by the book'.

You have also taken-on the risk of early 'masterlink' fail cascading to trashing a significant percentage of 8 pistons and 32 valves if/as/when it sets the bits of that chain into one of the other two chains that eat, sleep, and shag for a crust in the same bunk.

Even ONE clash mean a full teardown/rebuild and significant new parts.

Oil pump also ceases to rotate, oil ceases to circulate. That hopefully stops when the other 'customer' on that chain stops supplying fuel to the injectors and the motor stops.

But still...

Yeah I'm not sure whether or not the high pressure pump dies or not if this chain gives out. You'd think so, but I don't know if there's enough pressure supplied by the tank pump to keep it alive long enough to be damaged by loss of oil pressure

But to be honest, an engine pull and a 3rd go at the timing chain (to do this by the book, timing chains need to be out) was not an option for me here. It was either this, or part the car out. It was worth a shot even if it blows after 100 miles.

I'm thinking of seeing if I can rig up an oil pressure sensor into the filter body somehow. That way I could monitor for something catastrophic.