You have to remove the engine and remove the outer chains to change that one. It’s a big job. As you know, when the chain is too stretched, or when it skips a link, you will get fuel pump faults. The more stretched it gets, the more likely it is to skip. Given how far you are in this now, I would remove the engine and do the job right. That will allow changing of all the chains and the gears too, if needed

 

I wonder what the load is on that chain? I wouldn't think spinning fuel pumps would load it that much. Pretty tempting to break that chain and replace with one using a master link.

 

..spinning fuel pumps would load it that much...

well, plus the oil pump and vacuum pump...

 

This photo is strange because the fuel pump chain should be on the rear most teeth of the crank sprocket. Did you do the alignment check with the chain fitted correctly?

 

Good catch & good point! How did that happen?

 

Thanks all for the replies!

The sprocket shown is the crank sprocket. The bigger picture would show the fuel pump cam is in the lower left corner and oil pump sprocket in lower right when looking directly at the front of the motor.

I'm going to try a few different things. I bought two chains, one for destructive testing. Part #LR032087. It's an 8mm pitch chain and similar to the dimensions of BF05T & T8F standard chains so I ordered one of each master links in those sizes. Hopefully it's identical to one of those. Not just counting on that, I am also trying to identify a pin press where I could break the new chain and press the pin back in/mushroom it. There are not a lot of options that would fit into the confined space but I'll keep looking. Even this approach presents some risk of not being able to get the new chain on and having to pull the engine. There does appear to be enough room to break the old chain and attach the new chain and feed it around the oil pump sprocket and fuel pump camshaft sprocket then lay it over the crank sprocket. Even then, the new chain will wear pretty quickly as it settles into the old sprockets.

If I'm not comfortable with replacing the chain with one of the options above, I will just have to accept the risk of the current chain skipping a tooth or stretching far enough where it produces errors for fuel pump pressure. It might last 100k miles or 100 miles but pulling the engine now is not going to happen. If I pulled the engine I'm afraid I wouldn't stop at just the chain, oil pump sprocket and new fuel pump camshaft (the sprocket is part of the cam). I'd also want to remove the heads to have them properly cleaned, check main bearings, potentially re-ring/hone, etc.. It would be an endless rabbit hole.

 

Thanks all for the replies!

The sprocket shown is the crank sprocket. The bigger picture would show the fuel pump cam is in the lower left corner and oil pump sprocket in lower right when looking directly at the front of the motor.

I do see that it is the crank sprocket but that oil pump / fuel pump chain is definitely on the wrong set of teeth. It should be on the rear set of teeth on the sprocket.

 

Here's the whole picture, it's exactly as the manual for the INA chain has it. Note, I removed the slack so I would stop torturing the spring tensioner.

 

Here is a picture from the manual for both the INA & Tsubaki timing chains - Identical for chain routing but the timing location is slightly different. Note, I rotated 180 degrees to match the picture above.

 

Ok My apologies. I thought the sprocket that drives the cam chains was also fitted but I see now that it has not been. In the photo in post one, I thought I could see the teeth of the other sprockets behind the fuel/oil pump chain.

My own feeling on the slack in the chain is to work out if the spring tensioner still has travel available to keep the chain tensioned taking into account further wear and if all is good, I would accept it as is and continue with the job.

 

I didn't know that the camshaft drive sprocket came off of the crankshaft.

 

@ghur Appreciate the feedback, the travel of the tensioner appears to be ok but at some point if the chain stretches too much, it will be a full tooth retarded and I doubt the spring would prevent it from skipping. I do have a replacement tensioner but didn't realize when I got it that it can't be replaced without removing the oil pan. I'm awaiting new fuel/oil pump chains and master links. Hoping that one of those work. Clearly the chain is bespoke to this engine and is not standard sized. but the 8mm pitch and width/length of the pins seem to be very similar. I'll have to wait to see if the master link option works. The other option, one that lots of motorcycle folks do is to remove a pin from the old chain by grinding around the top of one pin, without affecting it's length, then press that into the link of the new chain and mushroom the end of it. If that works for motorcycles where the risk of a chain separating includes death, it should be good enough for this purpose. I'll try all three options and if I'm not happy with either of them, move forward leaving it alone for another day. It's quite possible I'm worrying a lot about nothing. I just don't like how it is not in perfect alignment given how much I've spent in time and parts on it.

@03rangiemark - The workshop manual says to replace the washers at front and back of the camshaft drive sprocket so it needed to be removed. Also I'm going with new chains and new variators so I opted to replace that sprocket as well. I saw in one post from someone to make sure you don't lose the key on the sprocket. That's not a problem in my case, it's glued to the crank and not coming off.

 

@03rangiemark - The workshop manual says to replace the washers at front and back of the camshaft drive sprocket so it needed to be removed. Also I'm going with new chains and new variators so I opted to replace that sprocket as well. I saw in one post from someone to make sure you don't lose the key on the sprocket. That's not a problem in my case, it's glued to the crank and not coming off.

I'm glad you provided that, since I soon need to do the cam chain guides/tensioners on at least one of the 2 of these engines I have. I don't know if I'll pull the cam chain sprocket when I do, but with your contribution, I'll be aware of it.
Thanks.

 

Hi, interesting topic, especially for me, cause I am struggling with high pressure fuel link - I guess at least. During the timing chain replacement on the 5.0 SC engine, I didn't care about fuel pump timing originally, and after assembly I faced issues while engine running. Then I realized the core issue and corrected the timing for fuel pump (released the tensioner and carefully moved the chain backwards. I have created a special tool and run it carefully over the vacuum pump shaft). I saw, that replacing the chain would be a pain, but before the engine timing chain replacement there was no issue at all - the engine was smooth and powerful, only after the start was a short rattle noise. The timing chain was loose, so decided to replace, but there was no sign of wear on fuel pump / oil pump chain.

So after the initial issues I had a powerful engine again, but quickly started random misfire - I have tried everything incl. ignition coils, etc, but the latest status is still, that if I start the engine, 9 of 10 times running with misfire. Switching of, and start it again usually solve the issue and runs well. Everything seems to be fine except the high pressure of fuel. When I had the issue with fuel pump timing initially, it was clearly seen on diagnostics the deviation between expected a real pressure. Now the real pressure is accurately following the demand, except the pressure ( and demand) doesn't make me sense, as initially should be high, then should drop down when idle.
HP part should start with around 138-150 bar ( 2000-2175psi ), and after the RPM drops down, it should be around 35 bar( 500 psi ) at idle. At 3000 rpm it should be again 138 bar (2000psi ). In my case it is very strange:
during startup - around 65 bar (940psi)
after rpm drops - 90-100 bar (1300-1450psi)
at 3000 rpm - 115 bar ( 1670 psi)

Any Idea about this deviation?

I started a topic two months ago, but received no answer or idea...

L405 5.0 Supercharged random misfire at start

Hi, I need some help from engine gurus according the V8 5.0 Supercharged engine. Recently replaced the timing chains and things around, after which the engine wasn't quit in a top condition - poor performance, hesitated, multiple cylinders wasn't running, and so. I have quickly recognized that...

www.rangerovers.net

 

Well I'm just in the middle of doing this exact same fix. My shoulder bolt holding the stay side of the tensioner untreated and the bolt dropped off causing the chain to come completely off.

How did your master link fix work? She still rolling?

 

No luck, gave up on it. I could not find any existing master link that would work and couldn't get a press that fit into the space that would reliably mushroom the head - It was close but I didn't feel comfortable enough to risk the engine. Did several tests with a spare chain I bought outside the vehicle. In the end, I left the existing chain knowing that it was stretched by about half a link. It runs perfectly now but I know it's a matter of time before it stretches too far and potentially skips a link. I think the only thing that will work here is a custom master link with a clip on it. If you know of someone with a machine shop that can make a master link out of one of the chain links, I'd be happy to send you a few links out of the chain I was testing with.

 

I'm going to have to try this somehow. I snapped my chain, and removing the engine is not an option. It's either part out the car, or a master link.

 

See I just bought mine for 19 grand 2 months ago and my chain (that he replaced amd sold me as replaced and fixed) fell off after the stay side of the auxiliary when the shoulder bolt backed out. Comfind out he replaced the tensioner and left the factory stretched chains.

I'm trying to fix it myself without taking this guy to court but this was my last option.

I was thinking potentialy making a master link myself aswell.

 

Happy to help with timing tools and any help I can provide. So the chain that fell off was one of the timing chains from the crank to the intake sprocket from what I gather due to improperly torqued shoulder bolt on the chain guide?

 

It's hars to explaine but the auxiliary fell off and is now resting off the gear on the HPS system.

When I went looking for this issue I found out the timing chains are factory (he said he replaced them). When tearing it down a found a **** tone of finger tight bolts, just a whole lot going on that isn't right, or what I paid for.

 

Here's a pic. Brand new chain.

 

I see it now - Which shoulder bolt came loose? The drivers side tensioner? Check it and make sure the tensioner is not cracked and that the tensioner spring is still in place. There does not appear to be enough clearance for the bolt head with the oil pan to replace it in situ. Passenger side is a fixed blade and can easily be removed to provide slack in the chain. by levering back the tensioner on the drivers side and removing the fixed blade, you should have enough slack to put the chain back on the high pressure fuel pump cam sprocket. With engine at TDC (keyway in 6 o'clock position) the colored link should line up at 12 o'clock on crank sprocket and the other colored link on HPFP sprocket dot around 7 o'clock. The timing tool should fit or be slightly retarded if the chain has stretched.

There is an updated oil jet that has a metal tab. I can only guess that tab is to prevent the chain from skipping P/N LR059161.

 

I already tried that. Tensioner is fine, with it don't adding tension I still can't get the thing on. Timings all set and locked in, just not enough room. The aux hain is brand new, tensioner are new all around, he left the stretched timing chains for some reason. There's just not enough room to get it to slip back on the gear, I cant get enough leverage in the right spots to do it.

 

I was able to create enough slack to move the chain by a tooth easily. There has to be enough slack in the chain to allow you to slip it on. Remove the fixed blade on passenger side and push the tensioner on the drivers side back as far as it will go. I used a right angled pick into one of the holes on the side of the tensioner and compressed the tensioner then put the pick against the other side of the block to hold it compressed in. From there you can turn oil pump sprocket clockwise to make the chain as tight as possible on the drivers side which should give you enough slack on the high pressure fuel pump sprocket side. The chain had enough slack to come off, it should go back on?

The only other options I see are possibly removing the oil pump sprocket, putting the chain on and re-installing the sprocket - Don't know if that's possible given the space available.
or find out if that shoulder bolt on the drivers side tensioner can be removed while the oil pan is installed - There might be enough room?

If neither of those work, I can look into getting a master link machined out of a chain link for you - I was planning on doing that anyway.

 

Just found this thread on the L320 side. It looks like there is enough room to remove the chain tensioner shoulder bolt with the oil pan in place.

https://www.rangerovers.net/threads/oil-pump-chain-tensioner-removal-without-dropping-pan.360460/

 

Jumping in for a random question.. does anyone know what the JLR-303-1621 tool is used for? I'm about to do head gaskets + timing chain job, and this special tool came with my timing kit.. however it doesnt appear anywhere in the workshop manual. Am i missing something? Do i need to lock the fuel pump when timing the engine? As i said, nowhere in the book does it say anything about removing high pressure fuel pump and replacing with this locking tool...

 

You do not need to remove the HPFPumps. The tool is for checking the timing of the HPFP cam and locking it for service. It is inserted in place of the vacuum pump below front timing cover. You will want to remove the vacuum pump and change the o-ring. You will likely find that your fuel / oil pump timing chain has stretched and the tool will not fit properly unless you advance the HPFP cam. If the tool won't fit, This will likely result in you having to change that chain sometime in the future when it stretches too far or finally jumps a tooth.

Earlier in this post you will find there has been an updated oiler with what appears to be a chain deflector added P/N LR059161

 

Yeah right after i commented, i realized that tool goes where the vacuum pump goes, not where the hpfp goes. So if im doing head gaskets + timing chains with the engine in the vehicle, i can ignore that tool, as i wont be retiming the hpfpumps, correct? and you say it wont properly fit unless I advance the hpfp cam.. the only way to do that would be turning the entire engine over, correct? But then the hpfp will be in the correct timing mark, but the rest of the engine will be slighly off of their tdc marks, correct?

 

On chain drives "in general":

- The greatest contributor to slack is usually the component with the fewest 'teeth' - they 'work harder' per-each tooth, hence wear faster. Crankshaft sprocket is the prime suspect. Significant gain if that can be replaced.

- Next-up, the drive sprockets on HPFP camshaft and oil pump. Harder to replace, but still... Replacing even ONE is another significant gain.

- The chain might be easier to replace than any of those others, but is otherwise not likely to be a "half-link" off... Not by itself, anyway. It's just reflecting the TOTAL wear 'in your face'.. where it can be most-easily measured..

Ergo I don't see a removable "master link" as resolving the core problem in this case. Tooth shape degradation of the sprockets.

Challenge/Question, then:

Is it possible .....to replace (at least) two out of three of the sprockets, the chain, and (of course!) the tensioner/guide(s)...

.....without .....removing the mill from the chassis?

 

@Hairy_Ears your question deserves a bump. I’m putting my engine in TDC to take off crankshaft pulley today and check fuel pump timing and I am expecting this needs to be done. I’m a noob mechanic but certainly going to try my hand at this. I’m filming all of it so at worst I can show what not to do… 🙃

 

Check out this thread - There appears to be enough room to remove the oil pump chain tensioner shoulder bolt with the oil pan in place.

https://www.rangerovers.net/threads/oil-pump-chain-tensioner-removal-without-dropping-pan.360460/

 

I did see this, while I am going to have to do this to give myself room, the only way to thread the new chain in underneath the camshaft will be either to remove the engine (not happening) or modify the new chain as you were attempting to do, so I can insert a split chain, thread it around the gears (this is possible, as it's how I removed the broken one) and then while it is in the engine, rejoin the chain.

I'm considering this method

1. Punched out a link from the old chain with the chain breaker. I got one from the old chain as I didn't want to damage the new chain when removing the pin. I'd use this old pin as my master pin.
2. Used a Dremel to grind the head off a pin on the new chain. This wrecked the pin but ensured I could remove it without damaging the chain links. I then removed that pin and tossed it.
3. With a vice and Dremel I carefully ground off the 'mushroom head' of the pin from the old chain. I didn't shorten the pin, just slightly ground the sides so it would slide through the chain links easily without damaging them.
4. Using a wire hook and a 'grabbing' tool I threaded the chain around the engine's crank sprocket. I then used wire to temporarily link the chain (keeping the links I wanted to join clear of wire of course). I used a screw driver in place of the camshaft for the time being so the chain wouldn't fall back down into the crank case.
5. I used rags to cover the engine as best as possible to prevent anything falling into the crank case. I then used the chain breaker with a flat end punch to just seat the new pin (smooth, grinded side first) in the chain links.
6. Once the pin was seated I took a small hammer and tapped the pin through the link. I had a friend hold the chain against a solid flat metal surface (in my case the side of the chain breaker) to act as a sort of horizontal anvil.
7. With the pin positioned correctly with the hammer (you can tap it back the other way if you've gone too far) I tested the chain to see if the link had become stiff.
8. Finally, using the 'horizontal anvil' technique above I used a rivet punch to re-mushroom the head of the pin. Again I tested the chain to see of it was stiff.
9. Then I replaced the screwdriver with the actual camshaft and sprocket.

How do I re-rivet a chain pin (with a chain breaker tool)?

I've got to replace the timing chain on a XS400 motorcycle. To do this I must break the chain, then connect it back up once it's in position. I've been practicing on the broken chain, which has a...

mechanics.stackexchange.com