[RRPhil]

In reply to stevenA's post :

"I have been looking at kits, and so far, have only found Transtec and Precision International, but no OEM. Where will you source your parts from and do you either have a source for OEM parts, or prefer one of the above 2 suppliers (assuming one of these is not OEM)?"
This is my first attempt at stripping the GM ‘box so I haven’t yet found out about the availability of an OEM overhaul kit. These are easily available for the ZF transmissions but I don’t know about the GM ones.

"Do you intend using the oem special tools, or do you use ez-seal installers (or equivalent)"
Yes, the clutch pistons look a real pain to reassemble compared with the simple ZF O-rings. The official tools look very expensive so I have priced up a Seal-e-Zee kit (there’s a specific one for the 5L40-E) and it comes to less than £100 so that would appear to be the way to go.

"The master kits appear the same for the 5l40 and the 5l50 - if so, are the differences only in the valve body (increased pressure) or electronics?"
Do you mean the 4L40 & the 5L40 because these are the same transmission, it’s just that they leave out 2nd gear (sprag, clutch, coast clutch, accumulator) and fit a lower duty Ravigneaux geartrain in the 4-speed version. All other components are identical.

Phil

 

[nsxxtreme]

Phil have you done a write up on the ZF transmission? I would be extremely interested in that one. Exspecially any details on any special tools you might have created or purchased.

Try http://www.rangerovers.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=37767

Cheers,
Fraser

Thank you I have been away from the site for a while.

Phil your an invaluable resource and do a really good job at documenting!!!

I know when my transmission finally bites the dust (knock on wood) I'll be going back through your posts.

 

[fraser130]

Shame I'm at work and all the images are blocked, I can't wait to see the inside of the torque converter when I get home!

Fraser

 

[tyinger]

In reply to stevenA's post :

"I have been looking at kits, and so far, have only found Transtec and Precision International, but no OEM. Where will you source your parts from and do you either have a source for OEM parts, or prefer one of the above 2 suppliers (assuming one of these is not OEM)?"
This is my first attempt at stripping the GM ‘box so I haven’t yet found out about the availability of an OEM overhaul kit. These are easily available for the ZF transmissions but I don’t know about the GM ones.

"Do you intend using the oem special tools, or do you use ez-seal installers (or equivalent)"
Yes, the clutch pistons look a real pain to reassemble compared with the simple ZF O-rings. The official tools look very expensive so I have priced up a Seal-e-Zee kit (there’s a specific one for the 5L40-E) and it comes to less than £100 so that would appear to be the way to go.

"The master kits appear the same for the 5l40 and the 5l50 - if so, are the differences only in the valve body (increased pressure) or electronics?"
Do you mean the 4L40 & the 5L40 because these are the same transmission, it’s just that they leave out 2nd gear (sprag, clutch, coast clutch, accumulator) and fit a lower duty Ravigneaux geartrain in the 4-speed version. All other components are identical.

Phil

Transtec and Precision Int. are high quality kits for GM, and all domestic units for that matter.

Don't waste your money on OEM kits. I have been using them in my shop for over 20 yrs.


Tom

 

[stevenA]

RRPhil wrote:

"The master kits appear the same for the 5l40 and the 5l50 - if so, are the differences only in the valve body (increased pressure) or electronics?"
Do you mean the 4L40 & the 5L40 because these are the same transmission, it’s just that they leave out 2nd gear (sprag, clutch, coast clutch, accumulator) and fit a lower duty Ravigneaux geartrain in the 4-speed version. All other components are identical.

Actually, there is an increased torque 5l50 that was introduced at the end of 2004, and fitted to BMW's and it would appear Range Rovers, althugh this is less clear. The torque capability of this box went from 360 NM to 390 Nm, so basically just a tweak.

Looking at the torque converter from your box, maybe this was one component that was upgraded - I need to xcheck in Microcat!

 

[RRPhil]

Ah, sorry, I’m with you now. So the A5S360R is a 5L40-E and the A5S390R is the 5L50-E, is that correct? I was confused over this some while ago :

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=30994&start=15#p295548

(& still am) because BWM specify a different fluid for each and the L322 M57 is rated at 390Nm but appears to use the fluid specified for the 360?

So you’re thinking that the later L322 TD6s may have been fitted with the upgraded transmission?

Phil

 

[DannnO]

So the glitter that was present in the fluid, was that from the "toasted" clutch discs? All the other parts seem to be in pretty good condition.

Quick, off-topic question: What type of cleaner do you use? I notice that most parts you feature in your pics look amazingly clean especially given the fact most have spent their life covered in oil. I ask because I'm terribly anal when it comes to keeping my garage clean. I use 50/50 mix of simple green and probably about 1,000 paper towels every time I work on my vehicles :lol:

Anyway, looking good so far! I'm sure this thread will be a huge asset to the diesel crowd just as your ZF teardown thread is to the petrol crowd :thumb:

 

[stevenA]

RRPhil wrote:

So you’re thinking that the later L322 TD6s may have been fitted with the upgraded transmission?

Thats correct. As an example, there were actually 3 different LR part numbers for the Torque converter. The very first had one part which was quickly superceded.

This part was then in turn changed for MY04, but has since been obsoleted and superceded back to the previous version, so there is now only one LR part available part for all TD6.

That being said, it is possible that a BMW version of the later torque converter exists - the difficulty is in knowing why it was updated and then dropped (was it no good, or is this just LR stock management 8~ )

I will speak to the contacts that I have and see if I can shed any light on this.

 

[Stevemfr]

All really good stuff! Steven, finding out what the differences between the RR transmissions are would be great. A good number of the real experts on the 5L40E in general have no info whatsoever on the 5L40E in the RR specifically as the diesels weren't offered in the US.

Phil, your transmission shows what appears to be a common fault (if not THE common fault) in the 5L40E according to Sonnax:
http://www.sonnax.com/system/pdfs/141/o ... 1289926276
The TCC clutch wear and the loss of reverse problems are related. According to the author of the article Bob Warnke, Sonnax Vice President of Technical Development (and one of the people I called when doing my research), the underlying cause of the problems associated with the TCC and reverse is either a sticking reverse lockout valve or cross leaking between the reverse lockout and TCC valves. Symptoms are, amongst others, TCC slip and loss of reverse (see the chart on Pg.1 of the article). And all of this is due to the too soft alloy in the valve body casting. Sonnax has a host of parts which are designed to rectify these probs:

I'd love to know if a 5L40E with a Sonnax valve body would go 300k km. And it also seems that, as I heard from numerous sources, torque (as in too much) or vehicle weight have little bearing on the longevity of the gearbox - so chipping a TD6 should not cause probs. If these are the main issues, that would be true.

Steven and I had a chat just a couple of days ago on ffrr about the transmission probs. One thing that would interest me is what it would take to build a bulletproof 5L40E. For instance, David Ashcroft told me a little about what he called the toilet-paper-roll-shaft. This shaft is apparently manufactured by winding a piece of steel in the same fashion that cardboard is wound to make a toilet paper roll. It apparently unwinds and expands making the box a total loss (this would obviously be a torque related issue). But he was the only one with this complaint...

I'll keep following here. Don't take too long with the ZF - they're boring by now. :lol:

BTW, Steven mentioned a poss source for a valve body w/ Sonnax parts installed?

 

[Stevemfr]

Quick, off-topic question: What type of cleaner do you use? I notice that most parts you feature in your pics look amazingly clean especially given the fact most have spent their life covered in oil. I ask because I'm terribly anal when it comes to keeping my garage clean. I use 50/50 mix of simple green and probably about 1,000 paper towels every time I work on my vehicles :lol:

Forgot to answer this earlier: automatic transmissions tend to look very clean when you open them. Amongst other things (namely there is no combustion taking place - even a manual transmission or axle will look clean on being opened), ATF contains large amounts of detergents. Check the website below to see Jay Leno flushing his an engine oil cooler with ATF:
http://www.hotflusher.com/

 

[stevenA]

So on the chase to the differences - here is a link to the transtar catalogue which highlights the different internal components of the 5l40e and the 5l50e.
http://www.amtrans.nl/5L40E.pdf

Apparently, the last two numbers refer to the size/load of the planetary gears.

This suggests that the size and configuration (number of plates) of several of the clutches was nominally changed - maybe RRPhil can measure to see which sizes are in the box that he has in pieces.

As to failure modes, and this is pure speculation, based on the hypothesis that the GM engineers did their jobs properly with the valve body design but had to improve the torque rating, I suggest that a failure mode could be something like:

1. Extra drag/wear on the direct/reverse drive clutch drum causes friction material loss (insufficient torque rating or too little clearance on release)
2. Friction material in fluid causes valve body wear
3. Valve body wear reduces lock up pressure
4. Torque converter lock up clutch wears causing more debris

.....and the viscious circle has started and accelerates leading to rapid failure.

Of note, the wear in the box RRPhil has, and the differences between the 5l40 and 5l50.

My conclusion is that the valve body wear is a result of an insufficient torque rating, and that if the clutches were up to the torque, and did not shed friction material, then the valve body would not wear, or wear as fast.

As I have said, pure speculation, and possibly only RRPhil or a GM/LR/BMW engineer can shed more light onto this, and the differences - Steve, time to start hanging around the bars near the GM plant!

To be continued.....

 

[Stevemfr]

Steve, time to start hanging around the bars near the GM plant!

You need to be my boss. I've been searching for an employer like you all my working life. :lol:

As to failure modes, and this is pure speculation, based on the hypothesis that the GM engineers did their jobs properly with the valve body design but had to improve the torque rating, I suggest that a failure mode could be something like:

1. Extra drag/wear on the direct/reverse drive clutch drum causes friction material loss (insufficient torque rating or too little clearance on release)
2. Friction material in fluid causes valve body wear
3. Valve body wear reduces lock up pressure
4. Torque converter lock up clutch wears causing more debris

What about this: they did their homework but under cost pressure from both internal (GM) and external customers (BMW and LR) they specified an alloy mildly too soft for better/easier machining after casting? On the phone, Sonnax said they did Rockwell testing on both older GM valve bodies and the valve bodies in the 5L40E. Apparently there was a difference.

But this is all just speculation. Maybe I need to do some bar-hanging. I can think of worse things to do... :lol: :lol:

 

[RRPhil]

I don’t think this really adds any more information than the Transtar catalogue that stevenA posted previously, but it does confirm what it states as the differences between the 5L40 & the 5L50 :

http://cobratransmission.blogspot.com/2 ... hange.html

I haven’t got as far as the 2nd gear clutch and coast clutch yet on my 5L40-E I’m afraid (because I’m still busy rebuilding a proper transmission ) but I'll be sure to measure the plates when I do.

Phil

 

[fraser130]

Any news here Phil? I'm dying to hear your thoughts and see more pictures!!!

Cheers,
Fraser

 

[RRPhil]

Sorry about the delay. I’ve finished rebuilding the 5HP24 for a forum member now

so I’ll get back onto the 5L40-E again.

Phil

 

[P1000]

Good afternoon, I joined this forum just because of this thread.

I am very interested in your work, I might be undertaking the same mission very soon - on a BMW 530d

From some of the research I've done - all the clutches in the 5l40 and 5l50 is the same (from 2002 up), but the biggest difference is that one(or more - not sure) of the planetary gearsets are shot-peened hardened.

I am eagerly awaiting your next update.

 

[RRPhil]

Right, I’m finally back on with the 5L40-E teardown again. Picking up where I left off ……

Next up - and the most difficult job so far - is removing this giant circlip/retainer ring, which requires a seriously large pair of pliers :

The retainer ring is selective i.e. it’s available in different thicknesses to cater for the particular tolerance stack up.

The intermediate & overdrive clutch assembly then pulls out :

Followed by the low clutch sprag assembly and its thrust washer :

The centre support assembly can then be extracted from the casing :

This centre support assembly includes the low/reverse clutch, second clutch and second coast clutch.

Then the planetary carrier assembly can be removed :

So this just leaves the rear internal gear/output shaft (you can see the park lock teeth around the outside of the internal gear) which will have to wait for the next ‘instalment’.

Stripping the sub-assemblies will then follow.

Phil

 

[P1000]

Thanks for the update.

Speaking to my parts supplier, he said that most of the diesels' boxes (5L40-e's) have 12 pistons, from what car is this transmission?

 

[RRPhil]

Just to complete the stripping down of the casing – now switching attention to the rear of the transmission

The rear casing is removed (7-off M13 A/F bolts) :

to gain access to the output shaft assembly :

and the park lock engagement mechanism :

which just leaves the selector shaft assembly :

So having removed these last few components :

finally leaves an empty casing :

Phil

 

[tyinger]

Just wonder Phil, what is your plan with the valve body. With all the known issues with wear in these units, and the expense of the Sonnax parts/tooling, are you going to replace the VB, or do the updates. I have not had one of these apart in my shop yet, but I see it happening soon.

Thanks,

Tom