I'm almost positive the crank can't be off, since there is only one keyway for the harmoning balancer to fit on. So what it sounds like to me is that the timing gearset is a tooth or two off, which would make it seem like the timing is wildly advanced or retarded when it's not (valves are not in the position you think they are). If the timing set was replaced recently, it's possible they were not aligned properly during install, if it hasn't been, it's possible the chain skipped a tooth due to slack, or the nylon gear has slipped on it's hub. The larger timing gear (on the cam) has a steel hub with nylon (plastic) teeth. The ring with the teeth is pressed onto the steel hub, but as it's not one peice, they can slip over time, resulting in further and further incorrect timing. The only way to tell would be to pull the timing cover and check unfortunately. Timing at idle with no vacuum should be ~6-8deg, full advance at 3500rpm should be ~22-24 deg mechanical I beleive (plus vacuum when attached).

Have you verified that the timing does advance as you rev it?

 

I'm almost positive the crank can't be off, since there is only one keyway for the harmoning balancer to fit on. So what it sounds like to me is that the timing gearset is a tooth or two off, which would make it seem like the timing is wildly advanced or retarded when it's not (valves are not in the position you think they are). If the timing set was replaced recently, it's possible they were not aligned properly during install, if it hasn't been, it's possible the chain skipped a tooth due to slack, or the nylon gear has slipped on it's hub. The larger timing gear (on the cam) has a steel hub with nylon (plastic) teeth. The ring with the teeth is pressed onto the steel hub, but as it's not one peice, they can slip over time, resulting in further and further incorrect timing. The only way to tell would be to pull the timing cover and check unfortunately. Timing at idle with no vacuum should be ~6-8deg, full advance at 3500rpm should be ~22-24 deg mechanical I beleive (plus vacuum when attached).

Have you verified that the timing does advance as you rev it?

Lance,

I agree that it is most unlikely that the TDC indicated can be out. Not likely that the Distributor gearset is out ast that would only affect the visual looking down at the Distributor.
Chain skipped a tooth. In my case very unlikely aso I will stick with the "KISS" solution for the time being and not overly complicate the problem. Not happy about reving the Engine to 3500 RPM. without a load on.
But I will see what happens to the advance when I rev. to 1000 - 2000.

 

As above for misalignment of front pulley, may not be the most accurate down to parts of a degree for marking but I've not encountered one that's shifted out of phase as it were.

Puzzling nevertheless. If the advance retard mechanism is compromised/ displaced, then it certainly has the potential to do as described. If stuck and inoperable at advance it would give the experience you've got.

Certainly worthwhile checking the distributor as a first call to make sure it's not tripping you up. And easy to do.

 

RRLondon,

All the comments about TDC. being out appear to be anecdotal. Most of the comments seem to follow the line " People say" I have not read any comment of someone actually having personal experience this problem. In my opinion it's a red herring, Mistakes happen in engineering (I know) But this is a mass produced article runing into hundreds of thousands. It would not be possible to escape quaility control for long. Whether it be the Crankshaft keyway or the Pulley.
I did not anticipate this Static problem as I thought the lack of revs was down to the Dynamic timig IE balance weights locked up. If the Engine is running smooth at tickover I am presuming that the Static must be in the area of 6 Deg BTDC. So why am I getting an Indicated reading of 25 Deg. BTDC.?
I will Have a look at the distributor to see if the balance weights are moving as they should. How do you get to the Distributor hold down bolt? The distributor would be easier to work on off the Engine.
Colin

 

The bolt is a little fiddly to get to - looking from the bonnet, it's just to the right but is reasonably masked by the distributor itself. Mine is a 15mm nut but can't confirm it's the same on all. I use a ratchet spanner for ease. You also need to manoeuvre the clamp a little as you remove and refit - if you have big hands, it can be a bit awkward. There is a bit of a trick to it but certainly a straightforward job. Be careful to align the oil pump drive when refitting - this is something that took me a while to master! You need to anticipate the final position of the drive whilst also considering the position of the rotor arm for timing. I'm probably making it sound more complex than needs be to be honest...

 

Distributor bolt accessible with 15mm mildly cranked ring spanner straight in the front, the loose end sticking between the fan blades. You can't move it far but patient undo to easily get the clamp off and distributor pulls out.

 

RRL.
I listened to myself re not possible for TDC. to be out. As well as yours and Lances comments. But just for the sake of taking out a No. 1 plug and a Spanner I checked the TDC. marks. Guess what it was miles out. I marked the "New" TDC. Then Strobed it. The timing was as I left it yesterday where it appeared to run well. The Strobe now showed that the Static was now 5 Deg. Re-set to 6/7 Deg. reconnected Vacumn advance and revved to 2000RPM. Dynamic timing went to 25Deg. or there abouts. Bit dificult watch Gunson rev. counter and per into the Crankshaft. So Balance weights are working.
So the Explanation? Made that way? or some one fit the pulley without the Key!
I have not road tested it yet but hope springs eternal that the problem has gone away.
Colin

 

Very strange, but obviously something is there to cause that.

Question, what does the static timing pointer look like and is it positioned at 12 o'clock relative to the crank pulley?

You've at least got somewhere in diagnosis which is significant in sorting out the problem, does the restriction still occur at 3,500 and above?

The front pulley keyway isn't hard to check, just remove the belts, undo the centre bolt and it'll slide out.

 

RRL,
Static timing pointer is where it should be at 12.00 and undamaged.
I'll leave the front pulley where it is. I am happy that I appear to have got a solution.
Thanks for you help.
Colin

 

I guess I have an odd one then, '85 Classic "gray market" with a build date of March '84, engine # 17 D09461 B. There is no timing marks anywhere, let alone the pointer. Original ignition finally failed, had a "brain box" similar to the mid/late 70's Ford, end of dizzy gear is slotted (either it's TDC or 180 degrees out).

Switched over to "newer" amplified dizzy system. Relocated module and had starting issues. After many frustrating days of troubleshooting, found that if the HT lead ran anywhere near the alt, spark was nonexistent! Ran lead up and over, have had no issues since.

Have found very little info on the original, the "box" is available from RimmerBros last time I looked. Posting so maybe someone with way more history knowledge from across the pond can enlighten me on what was original installed.

 

The timimg pointer is a steel "blade" that bolts onto the front cover in two lugs next to the oil pump, and so maybe missing.

The slot on base of distributor is not timing, just a flat drive lug to spin the oil pump rotor that's driven off the distributor. Timing drive is gear from camshaft to the skew gear on distributor.

That era may be an ballast resistance system "box" being a fairly flat folded aluminium item with wide multi pin connectors. Basically runs a 9 volt coil in normal running but switches (supply from starter solenoid) a 12 volt supply in just while cranking to make higher spark output. Ford often used that method.