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Discussion Starter #1
I brought my 2006 Range Rover with 75K miles on it into Jaguar/Land Rover Anaheim hills. I explained That I have a symptom with my transmission that matches TSB No. LTB00101. They insisted on driving and troubleshooting the problem. They found no fault codes or leaks and recommended a complete transmission replacement. I asked if they had performed the recommended solution per the TSB and they refused to perform the repair claiming that it may render the vehicle inoperative. Unless I took responsibility for the software update making the problem worse, they refused to follow the recommendation by Land Rover for a simple fix and claimed it needed a new transmission. If the car is shifted manually the transmission works perfectly. This proves that the problem is in the programming of the transmission module or computer and NOT inside the transmission. Is there another way to re-flash a transmission module or Ecm from an independent shop or are stealerships the only place this can be done?
 

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Any well equipped shop will be capable of updating software as well. THere are some great indie shops in the LA area perhaps someone can recommend one. Have you tried another dealer?
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Just called a dealer in Mission Viejo and they are going to look into it. As much as I have read about this problem on these forums, it's amazing that they are not completely familiar with it and the solution. I'll check around for an Indie Rover shop as well. Thanks..
 

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As long as there is no slippage at all, and the software has never been updated since the fix came out(as in it still has the old software) then the update will probably take care of it.

That said, the dealer isn't out of line by asking you to take responsibility if the trans does fail following the update. By updating the software, the shift adaptions are reset, this means they need to relearn. In relearning the adaptions, the trans forces more slip than normal so that it knows what pressures it needs for proper shifts. If the trans is on its way out, this can cause it to fail completely.

This should have been explained to you, however I have had the same discussion with a customer before, where without driving the vehicle first, I will not preform updates on request. Keep in mind that that bulletin came out when these vehicles were relatively new and for the most part, pretty low mileage.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Two important things that a competent technician should be able to figure out having driven the car.
First, the transmission is not slipping, the only symptom is the 2-1 downshift is too late when in Drive or Sport auto-shift modes.

Second, If it is shifted manually into first before stopping completely, there is no issue at all.
This proves that the problem is in a program not in the gearbox itself.

If the repair re-learn causes so much slippage as to damage the clutches or bands, I would not want it installed on a brand new trans. Why on earth would an engineer design anything so poorly?
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Still have not heard back from Land Rover North America or the Dealership I found in Mission Viejo. Both of which were getting right back to me. :naughty: I did find an independent shop in Orange County with software loading capability that is willing to re-flash it for me for $125 and no liability to me for their software. I'll post the results next week after I get it done.
 

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2006-2009 Range Rover MkIII / L322
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Still have not heard back from Land Rover North America or the Dealership I found in Mission Viejo. Both of which were getting right back to me. :naughty: I did find an independent shop in Orange County with software loading capability that is willing to re-flash it for me for $125 and no liability to me for their software. I'll post the results next week after I get it done.
I bought a mongoose cable and IDS. Did it myself when I replaced my transmission.
 

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If it is shifted manually into first before stopping completely, there is no issue at all.
This proves that the problem is in a program not in the gearbox itself.

If the repair re-learn causes so much slippage as to damage the clutches or bands, I would not want it installed on a brand new trans. Why on earth would an engineer design anything so poorly?
Drive vs Manual changes more than just the TCM or your right hand making the shift, so no, this doesn't really prove anything, as line pressure, slip duration and engagement, as well as engine torque during the shift are all effected as soon as you move that shifter to Sport.

And no, it going through an learning how to shift does not cause the trans to fail, but one that is on the way out, can easily be pushed over the edge by this. It learning through slipping is the reason this transmission shifts smoother and quicker than an old 700R4 or something else that is not adaptive.

As stated, you can purchase the equipment to do it yourself(correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the IIDtool tool can do this too) or if you are certain that there is nothing at all mechanically wrong, and the only issue is the software, take the liability off the table when talking to a shop, if nothing else, having this discussion with a shop will make think that you're trying to get one over on them, and most shops will very quickly shy away from that job. $125 for a software update is no where close to worth the liability of a failed transmission for any shop.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
OK, there is nothing inside the transmission that learns or remembers anything. It is an electromechanical box that uses solenoids to control when to shift, how much pressure to apply etc. and does nothing without external input. All the "learning" and programming is done by external modules (TCM and ECM). Unless you can point to a component inside the transmission itself that can fail causing the 2-1 shift point to be too low unless overridden by the signal from the shifter I'll stick with this being a programming issue. I'll find out for sure on Friday when the shop I found re-flashes the modules. Also, I didn't approach this shop with liability as the issue, I just explained the diagnoses and position taken by the dealership and they offered to complete the job without expecting me to be liable for their work.

I see your point and that of the dealership that if a transmission is already on its last leg and the bands or clutches are burnt and slipping, the "learn" process could make it worse. However, as stated from the beginning they drove it found nothing else wrong.
 

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My first post on this thread said that as long as there is not already any damage, and the 'old' software is still in it, then the update will probably take care of the issue, and it should. I'm not trying to talk you out of this, just give the other side of the story from a shop's perspective.

Also, that learny box for the transmission, is inside the transmission. The only external control it has is the shifter, and various signals(RPM, road speed, brakes applied)
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Understood,

Thanks for the input RoverGuy7..
 

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I believe I have this issue with my 2007 RR SC. It very consistently shifts to first when I am at, or very close to a stop. It feels like a little jerk from the transmission. Would that be what this issue feels like?

I am very interested to know the outcome of your service gadzooks2
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Yes comleader, I have now read numerous threads describing this problem, it seems extremely common and it matches the TSB sent out by Land Rover. As per this discussion, if your transmission is not already slipping into gears when it shifts (ie, nearly worn out) then the program re-flash should resolve the issue. Also, if you drive it in manual shift mode and manually pull it into first gear at 5-10 mph when coming to a stop, there should be no issues when you accelerate away from the stop. At that point, you are commanding the shift points, not any program. I'll post something tomorrow once we visit the shop.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
So the re-flash didn't fix the problem but it didn't damage anything either. The re-learn process made for some weird shift points at first but by the time I got home, about 25 miles, everything had settled down and it was back to normal. The late shift from 2nd to first started out hitting harder but by after the drive home it had settled down and is milder than before the re-flash. I can drive it forever as it is by manually pulling it in to first before stopping but would really like to be able to just use Drive. I have more questions now than before about how the 2-1 shift point is programmed and exactly what kind of signal from the speed sensor or ABS the computer is looking for to know exactly when to engage the first gear solenoid on deceleration. At least now I know the factory software won't completely fix this. Maybe that's why there are so many of these failures out there?
 

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At least now I know the factory software won't completely fix this. Maybe that's why there are so many of these failures out there?
Mine is perfect. I have no clunk, or other discernible behavior when slowing to a stop and the transmission downshifts to first. The update completely cured mine, albeit on a new transmission, with a sonnax zip kit in the valvebody.
 

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Did they update the PCM also, or just the TCM?

Following an adaption reset you need to drive the vehicle in a correct way for the adaptions to fully set, it's not like fueling adaptions that will eventually set just by driving. This really should be done immediately following the reset, before the trans has enough time to kind of learn, just makes it take more cycles at this point though.

See the link for the Adaption Drive Cycle, as well as a way to reset the adaptions without special equipment. I have never used that method to reset them, however I trust what ddilenger says when it comes to the numbers inside the computer, just make sure you do it with the trans fluid cold, <60* C.

http://www.rangerovers.net/forum/6-...2/147897-zf-adaption-reset-driving-style.html

There is one other thing that can be done, however first I'd like to make sure of exactly what you're experiencing.

So, driving around in D, you slow down for a stop sign. Are you getting a harsh 2-1 shift as you're coming to a complete stop, or a harsh 2-1 shift as you are hitting the gas to start off again before coming to a complete stop? These are two very different shifting instances.

There is also a separate sub-adaption for 'tip-in-thumb' which relates directly to 1-2/2-1 shifts, I'll attach a TSB that describes it as well, however use only Step 3 from here, and the Adaption Drive Cycle from the link above - it needs to see a no-load 2-1 shift before coming to a stop.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Wow, What a bizzare and interesting procedure! They left out walking in a circle 3 times facing North then swinging a dead chicken over your head! I can't wait to try it though. How do you do 5 cycles up to 55mph and coasting to a stop without the transmission reaching 60C though?

The symptoms are when you come to a complete stop in D (or S) you have already stopped and can feel a slight thud as the car goes from 2nd to 1st. If you wait for the thud, nothing at all bad happens when you accelerate because it is of course in first gear. If you happen to not come to a complete stop, say 2mph and hit the gas, the thud still comes but since you have raised the rpm when the thud hits it is much harder, like a clunk which is the equiv. of dropping it in gear with your foot on the gas.

Having read the bit about "tip in thumb" I would not attempt to apply 50% throttle before the 2-1 shift had occured and wait for the shift to slam in. That would break any transmission as though you put it in neutral gave it 50% throttle and dropped it into gear..

So you think I should try the drive cycle 5 times thing at this point?
 

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How do you do 5 cycles up to 55mph and coasting to a stop without the transmission reaching 60C though?
Only the reset(pressing the throttle) needs to be completed with the fluid cold, you then want to drive it around lightly for a few minutes, letting it get to operating temperature, and then go through the drive cycle.

Having read the bit about "tip in thumb" I would not attempt to apply 50% throttle before the 2-1 shift had occured and wait for the shift to slam in.
Throttle should be applied as soon as the 2-1 shift occurs, I usually go through this following the adaption drive cycle, and with less throttle the first couple times, after that, it gets good enough with the shift that even going WOT is fine, assuming of course there aren't any mechanical issues causing the poor shift quality, and it is solely due to adaptions.

Was the PCM updated as well as the trans?
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Thanks for clarifying that RoverGuy7. The shop was supposed to follow the TSB procedure which does include both PCM and TCM. I will call and verify that though. If I wait for the 2-1 shift to occur the sure, I can apply 50% to 100% and there is no issue, it just goes..

I'll try this stuff when the wife gets back from work tonight..Sounds promising.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Have not been able to get out on the road and try the adaption reset/driving style yet but have a question. Because this could take miles of road without having to slow for traffic, could the E-brake be used to slow down quicker or will that trigger something in the Program that would end the adaption cycle too? It's just hard to get to a road without getting it too hot for the key reset, then it's even harder to find a place to get to 55 and coast to a stop 5 times without turning around and using the brakes which would screw up the process. Maybe this explains why so many people have re-flashes done and it doesn't solve the problem and others it does. Perhaps some are able to complete this process which sounds pretty **** important.
 
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