[Malafax_dand]

I understand that the ESSO LT 71141 fluid is designed to be a never replace fluid for the life of the transmission. Is this really the case, come on really? I mean if I have the time and money, and intend on keeping the car well towards 200,000 miles, should I not just do a pan drop and replace the missing fluid?

It seems incredibly unlikely that a transmission would never need a fluid refill. Are we not limiting the potential life of the transmission by not replacing the fluid, or are the two life spans almost equal, e.g...The transmission will fail before the fluid wears out? Would I be doing more harm than good by replacing the transmission fluid? Is this lifetime fill option, really a safe bet?

 

[RRPhil]

The scanned page below is from the official ZF Repair Manual for the 5HP24

Phil

 

[Dan_UK_1984]

I had mine changed at 110,000 miles. I simply don't believe that a transmission should have oil in it for over 100k, or even 50k to be honest. Lord's "sealed for life" means sealed for the life of the warranty, they don't care if your gearbox fails at 150,000, in fact if they can screw you for 5K then all the better.

3 things degrade oil; Heat, Water and "dirt":

Heat - I overheated mine whilst driving back from Wales one day, it stuck in lower gears until it had cooled and then resumed normal operation. I read somewhere that by taking the oil above recommended temps shortens the life significantly.

Water - I do a lot of short journeys and have noticed that my engine oil suffers from a bit of mayo on the colder months because the oil rarely gets to evaporate off the moisture that's drawn in from the atmosphere. I assume the same can be said for the trans'.

Dirt - There are 4 magnets in the bottom of the sump to attract swarf etc that is floating round in the oil, but there may be other contaminants that are not magnetic that will cause premature wear.

Time is also an important factor, oil just degrades over time, by degrade i mean that it looses it's lubrication properties if it is open to the elements and goes through lots of heat cycles. It cost me £150 inc the correct oil to have a transmission specialist change the oil and dispose of the old, I didn't think that was too bad. I'll be doing the Diff oils in the next couple of weeks as they aren't on the service schedule either.

Dan

 

[jope]

yes, a transmission fluid change is really necessary!!

sealed for lite (or out of warranty). I did mine last week.

Oil depends whether you have the zf(petrol) or the gm(diesel) transmission.

it's a good feeling having fresh oil in the transmission. The drained oil was not red any more..

 

[nsxxtreme]

The drained oil was not red any more..

It should have never been red otherwise your mechanic would have been seeing green!!

 

[Malafax_dand]

The dealer wanted 38 USD per pint for the ESSO LT 71141.
That is insane.

 

[remington]

I think it's going to take the current generation of shade tree mechanics to die before people are willing to accept the fact that many modern transmissions do not need regular fluid changes. If it makes you feel better do it. Kinda like the guy who sells his car on craigslist bragging that he changed the oil every 1500 miles. Why? Cuz it makes him feel better. He can feel the difference afterwards :thumb:

 

[Dan_UK_1984]

Many modern transmissions do not need regular fluid changes. :thumb:

You think 200,000 miles for a transmission is fine then? Overused ATF has reduced lubrication properties, that is a fact that isn't really in debate I would hope!? "Use" is classed as; Miles, Time, Heat Cycles.

Also, ZF have revised their service schedule for the 4HP2*, it is now 80,000km - 120,0000km or 8 years, whichever is sooner. So 10 years, I imagine they thought was equal to 150km/90,000miles.

So ZF say change the oil every 50-75,000 miles depending on use (considering the gearbox is from a BMW saloon would say it works hard!)

 

[Rich998a]

The dealer wanted 38 USD per pint for the ESSO LT 71141.
That is insane.

That is insane when you think the retail (excluding VAT) works out at £14.12 a litre in the UK.

Would you like to to ship you some? :lol:

 

[RRPhil]

I've attached the latest ZF lubricant list (TE-ML11) that Dan is referring to.

In the ad. for their Lifeguard Fluid (below) you can see that ZF quote "Oil regeneration and oil filter change beyond 100,000 miles will have a positive effect on the service life ......" so they aren't entirely consistent with the mileages that they're quoting but, nevertheless, they clearly recommend an oil (& filter) change during the transmission's "lifetime".

ZF Lifeguard Fluid 5 is, of course, Esso LT71141 (which, when new, is an amber colour and looks like thin honey)

Phil

 

[jope]

The drained oil was not red any more..

as I'm running diesel and then having the GM50L40 automatic transmission which requires texaco etl 7045e transmission oil..

So there is an important difference in oil whether you have the zf or the GM transmission

 

[Dan_UK_1984]

Check these people out for recommended fluids and part numbers:

http://www.dingocroft.co.uk/Rec_lubes_RR3.htm

 

[woldd90]

Just the fact the LR's have propensity to leak is a good enough reason to change the fluid, if just to make sure that it is topped off.

I change the oil on my Defenders every couple months, mainly, because they sit around so much... So, it's not the miles as much as time. If you insist on not changing the oil as much, you should at least change the filter every 3K.

 

[Malafax_dand]

I found some specifications on the ESO LT Fluid. These numbers may not be correct and I certainly have no idea what they mean. Does anyone know what the real world implication of these measurements mean? Additionally, maybe we can find the Decron III equvilant numbers.

This lubricant goes way beyond viscosity and density. Basically, this is an ATF which possess the high pressure lubrication qualities of synthetic gear oil and will withstand high temperatures without foaming. I really don't see these qualities on the specification sheets of the Valvoline or Quaker State products. Additionally, I don't see the comment about lifetime or long life on these other products. One reason that people have been successful in using these other products is that we don't drive for hour after hour at 150 mph on the Autobahn. Therefore, our lubrication requirements are not as demanding. Bottom Line, in my book, is stick with the Esso LT-71141 and you will newer wonder if the failure of your transmission was due to using a cheeper ATF.

ESSO LT 71141
Kinematic viscosity 100°? cSt 7,3 DIN 51562
40°? cSt 37

Dynamic viscosity with -40 °? cP 18000 DIN 51398

Viscosity index 168 DIN ISO 2909
Density at 15 °? g/ml 0.853 DIN 51757
Flash Point °? 215 DIN ISO 2592
Pour point °? -54 DIN ISO 3016
Copper Strip Corrosion ??. ????. 1-150 A3 DIN 51759
Evaporative Loss at 200 °? % 5 DIN 51581

Foaming Tendency S1 ?? 10/0 ASTM D 892
S2 ?? 30/0
S3 ?? 0/0

Mechanical testing on installation with loaded gears (FZG), A/8.e/90 Scoring after MAX Load 12 DIN 51354, ????? 2

Shearing test with the conical rollers. 20 h
after the shift, V100 ??2/? 6,6 P-VW 1437
reduction in the viscosity, V100 % 9

 

[fisha]

Sealed for life = Sealed for warranty ... its foolish to think anything otherwise.

The gearbox is a set of layered clutch plates which over time will wear and bed in, all lubricated by the fluid which over time will lose its viscosity properties.

My Passat ZF box began to shift poorly and showed hard faults , missed shifts and limphome mode at around 80k miles. It was completely solved by a new filter and fluid. The stuff that came out was brown slime. Life ? i dont think so.

My L322 started to do the same about 55k miles, new filter + fluid solved the problem .... for a while ( needed a rebuild ), but again the drained fluid was brown, and the magnets inside the sump covered in metal filings.

To me, a fluid change around 60 to 70k miles is a good preventative measure, but to do it more than that I think is not necessary.


and, a final thought:

I've just had my ZF box rebuilt by Mackie Transmissions in Glasgow, 1 of 4 ZF approved places in the UK. They've stated I should bring the car back in after 6k miles for a filter / fluid change so that all the bedding filings are cleared out and after that it'll run fresh for a long time. So to me, that suggests that sealed for life aint the case either.

 

[littlehandegan]

While I have never had the fluid changed. I did just put a new transmission in. (Warranty). And when they looked at the records it was shown as the 2nd one put in (One at 30,000, and one at 60,000)
WTF is wrong with these transmissions?

 

[Dan_UK_1984]

WTF is wrong with these transmissions?

Often the way they are driven, ie revved up and then slammed into drive etc. Not saying that's what happened to yours, you may just be unlucky. They are a solid and reliable box, to have multiple failures is very bad luck or it's something else...

If your gearbox is failing after every 30k then it would be sensible to assume that something else is causing it to fail - blocked radiator or trans cooler, there could be a leak in the system allowing engine coolant into the gearbox coolant under pressure which then destroys the oil but evaoprates off in the high temps?

 

[RRPhil]

It always interests me that in the event of an engine failure the victim would immediately report that “the camshaft’s gone” or “an injector’s failed” or “the water pump seized” i.e. some recognition of the fact that an engine is a complex machine made up from hundreds of components – one of which has failed & needs replacement. This never happens with automatic transmissions though. “The transmission’s gone” – end of story.

Like an engine, an automatic transmission is made up of hundreds of components and the failure mode for both your car’s transmissions could have been entirely different. Sure, the 5HP24 has its weaknesses. They happen to be a particular clutch piston (cost = £25) and a particular clutch drum (cost = £180) but, as every Land Rover dealer knows, unlike an engine it’s simply not possible to repair a gearbox so you have to replace the whole thing with a new one and stick the customer with a bill for several thousand pounds/dollars :dance: .

By the time Land Rover started using the 5HP24 it had already been thoroughly ‘tested’ for eight years having been launched in V8 Jaguars and BMWs way back in 1996. In fact ZF was already producing the 600Nm 6HP26 (the 5HP24’s replacement) when L322 first appeared in March 2002 but because our Range Rover’s powertrain was finalised by BMW between 1996 & 1999 - alongside the X5 - and Ford decided it was too late to change anything when they took over Land Rover in 2000, we got the ‘old’ (and therefore fully developed) transmission.

The 5HP24’s input torque capacity was originally specified as 420Nm but this subsequently changed to 440Nm which - by complete coincidence I’m sure – happened to be the maximum torque developed by BMW’s 4.4 litre single-vanos M62 V8 engine! Arguably therefore the transmission was running on its limit. Nevertheless BMW were obviously sufficiently confident in the transmission’s durability to ‘up’ the torque of the X5 for 2002, with the 4.6 litre engine, to 480Nm - ZF simply added another clutch plate to the D Clutch & re-matched the torque converter.

Oops, sorry, that turned into a bit of a rant didn’t it? Anyway, in summary, I concur with Dan that you’ve either been very unlucky or there’s and underlying problem with your vehicle. It is certainly not normal for 5HP24s to ‘fail’ at 30,000 mile intervals.

Phil
5HP24 Supporters Club member

 

[Malafax_dand]

I am going to get a lesson in rebuilding a 4hp24 this weekend. Through a series of unfortunate "learning experiences" with my failed P38a transmission, I have a left over used transmission that needs a rebuild.

I can not wait to see all the insides...