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What do I do with this situation?

  • Sue the the guy and turn him into the coppers?

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Premium Member
1997 P38 4.6 HSE
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27 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I recently traded a well maintained and well running '95 Chevy 1500 pickup (family willed) for a '97 4.6 p38. Both are at 154K miles. The seller put heavy lipstick on a pig- shined up and touched up all corners. It SEEMED very well cared for. He promoted the spring replacement (done with electrical bypass also it seems). It also seems to be lifted 2". Cold was coming from A/C and the engine ran smooth while sitting on ridiculous 22" (albeit valuable) wheels. Initially I thought I had scored for my interests and it was a decent even value exchange (I figured US$2500) as I am no longer needing a hauler and the buyer said he did. I could use an occasional hauler (in the boot or on a rack works) I also started to fancy the idea of light 4x4 and family adventure camping a few times a summer as well as a severe winter occasional safe (toddler on board) driver in the winter. I replaced the crappy (seller installed and mis-wired) head unit with a modern double-din with Apple CarPlay and tapped into the existing 11 speaker HK (beautiful results). I ordered a custom roof rack mount and parts to build an 80/20 Alu rack. I found original Mondial wheels, restored them and put some big BFG A/T's on. Got excited.... it turns out I LIKE driving this thing around.

What I found later...
I discovered a (still unknown) relay in the dash tapped into a wire harness and feeding other factory wires. No big deal but curious.
RF blower fan out. Repaired it. Sweet!
Sunroof doesn't close. No problem. Ordered kit.
HEVEC screen repair needed and missing sensor fan. Typical and weird. no big deal. Bought new fan on eBay. seems mixers are working. nice.
Cruise not working - Bought new vac line. mid diagnosis on that - no biggie, pump appears to be out.
Wireless FOB receiver disconnected - connected - yay! it works! - wait, it kills the battery in a day... need newer unit?

Wait.. leaking good amount of oil daily, the brakes are acting funny, and A/C is not working so well... let's bring to a classic LR shop and pay for a real look-over...

HOLY CRAP! The dash warning lights were all removed?! This after the seller said he took to a local dealer to have a warning light cleared?? Something is seriously amiss, and holy crap, are there some seriously expensive repairs piling up.

-can't communicate with SRS according to an LR shop. What could possibly be going on here?

-likely bad BECM. didn't pay for this level of testing. Happy to spend a weekend (only I hope) with a multimeter testing and checking grounds. What are the chances it's bad? Is this why there is hot-wiring all over and a heavy relay or solenoid battery disconnect installed with a switch under the steering wheel? The local experts said it's probably bypassing the BECM, but I'm wondering if that's even possible that so many things are running still since it controls all- Right??? Or perhaps some parts of it are bad? Do I need a "Package" replacement with dash, BECM, keys, etc that I see on eBay to make a replacement work?? F*&^

-Ball joints and tie rods and the usual to go with US$1600 - and this is something I wouldn't do myself. Feels fine driving- not sloppy. Guy down the road says it's because its a heavy vehicle, but you could pry the ball joints off with a pry bar. Not safe now or very soon he says.

-Bad brake accumulator and likely pump. no biggie ( I think). parts had for cheap on eBay

-crank seal front (the leak)- $400 - wouldn't do myself

-battery crap and fried - well.. old vehicle..

there are other things, but this is what sticks out to me and is most troubling.

I'm asking for advice guys. I do now fancy an older LR 4x4 and getting it mildly safaried out. I can handle typical old vehicle servicing and the slew of weird electric and tedious repairs on this, if that's all it is. I fancy having a 4x4 load capable vehicle and family weekend fun rig, but due to the aforementioned, it's gotta be reliable and safe.

I agreed on a good faith, we are both risking typical old vehicle repairs, sort of agreement with the seller. We agreed honesty and forthcomingness about known issues. He lied and screwed me over. Not a ton of money on the line here, but here I am now invested in money and time to make the dream happen, but I can't let this override pragmatism and rational thinking. I contacted the guy with my evidence, including the evidence of him taking it to a dealer, being informed about the missing bulbs and inability to perform diagnostic. He continued to try to lie, but it's clear he knows I mean business and he is legally screwed, and also criminally by local laws. He offered $1000 to make this go away. I'm seeing a disparity more of $1500 due to the BECM and SRS unknowns at this point. I think this is an, at best, US$1000 vehicle at this point. What do you all think??? Should I just try to force a trade back and try to re-coupe my investments by selling what I've purchased for it. If I can trade back, should I go for something more dependable with better gas mileage since I have this new sparked interest? I don't think I should accept only $1k. Can I sort out the age issues and gremlins in reasonable time and effort if I am reasonably apt and willing? What are the chances I'm going down a rabbit hole here?

What do you all think?

Thanks for taking your time to read!
 

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Super Moderator
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2,193 Posts
You've got pretty standard neglected/butchered P38 problems there. From your list, dumping the springs and putting it back on EAS is simple enough. Spare relay may be doing something, pull it out and see what happens. Cruise not working will be a perish vacuum pipe, probably the one going to the brake pedal. If fob receiver is causing the battery to discharge you need the Fob Filter from Marty (www.p38webshop.co.uk) who can also supply you with a repair kit for the HEVAC display. AC won't work well, you have no interior temperature sensor that should live below the clock. Highly doubtful the BeCM is at fault, it starts, runs and drives and most things seem to work, etc.

You're also being quoted ludicrous prices.....
 
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Premium Member
1997 P38 4.6 HSE
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27 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
You've got pretty standard neglected/butchered P38 problems there. From your list, dumping the springs and putting it back on EAS is simple enough. Spare relay may be doing something, pull it out and see what happens. Cruise not working will be a perish vacuum pipe, probably the one going to the brake pedal. If fob receiver is causing the battery to discharge you need the Fob Filter from Marty (www.p38webshop.co.uk) who can also supply you with a repair kit for the HEVAC display. AC won't work well, you have no interior temperature sensor that should live below the clock. Highly doubtful the BeCM is at fault, it starts, runs and drives and most things seem to work, etc.

You're also being quoted ludicrous prices.....

Thanks for the reply. Yep pretty butchered with lot's of half-ass "repairs" going on.

Springs/EAS - I'm not worried about the EAS for now, but will mull it in the future. It works well now with springs and gives a lift I might need for my total 32" diameter wheels. I see super-overlanding 4x4 guys say "we don't want air suspension because we can't fix it in the field", but I'm not a super-overland guy and I'm sure there are many other things you can't fix in the bush. EAS would be nice if it plays well with my 18" Mondial / 32" total with BFG A/T wheels.

Cruise - I should have posted more detailed updates on this, but I am not worried about it. I tested both brake switches, grabbed some new vac line, and vac-suck-tested the plunger, the balloon for throttle control, and the pump. The pump has no suction. BUT, I'm also getting no clicking when trying to activate it. I don't see the "relay" switch next to the controller, but I haven't taken off the two nuts yet. There is a local guy parting a 2000 P38 that I could grab this and other bits from.

FOB receiver - great info on Marty's shop! I didn't stumble across that for the filter yet. I have some zebra connectors already for the HEVEC LCD, but I would definitely have to grab a rf filter from his store if I go forward.

HEVEC and AC - I do have the book logo on the readout still... but I can get into that later. I put a new/old fan and sensor in the dash below the clock. I noticed it has gained normal auto control and does pretty well on mild summer days. It does struggle on very hot days, which shows up by coming on cold-ish then slowly going to nothing, while TONS of condensate is dripping/running under the truck. If I leave it a bit, it comes back, but still struggles. The cold air also seems moist and not dry, but this could be in my head. My guess is that the refrigerant is low. If that's a correct guess, I figure I'll wait a bit to see if it leaks out more to look at leak testing before just refilling it. What are your thoughts on this guess?

BECM and SRS errors - can I likely troubleshoot my way through solving gremlins, grounds, contacts etc and, worse case scenario, possibly have Marty repair or troubleshoot the unit if really needed? Could I be looking at months of this or good long weekend or two? Will I need an LR shop to reset warning codes after I've done my testing and contact cleaning etc? That would certainly be a pain to not be able to test your results. I know I can research this more myself, so I'm really just looking for quick, big picture, gut advice on best/worse scenario. I mean, yeah, the thing does drive... but I don't like the idea of not having a functioning warning system... think overheating and slipping sleeves.

The local specialist Expedition Autoworks of Saint Louis Park has the balljoints etc booked at 16hrs and another lower cost local guy has a different system telling him 11 shop hours. There is a guy a ways away that I could check with that claims "75% of dealer cost", which isn't terribly attractive, well enough to inquire. It sounds like I should be thinking about a lot of different front end "do it because you're already in there" maintenance and parts replacements (from what I've read in the forums) also.

Anyways, sorry if this has gotten lengthy. I'm just looking for macro advice right now. I just want a safe and dependable vehicle if I spend (the ever so subjective) "reasonable time" chasing gremlins. I would like to do the proper maintenance, minor restoration, and have a part time fun vehicle for years to come.

Thanks again!
 

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I'll agree, you might not be able to fix EAS in the field but you can't fix a busted coil spring that has ripped the sidewall out of your tyre either. I know which I'd rather have to figure out a fix for.

Cruise, you have remembered that you need to activate it with the switch on the dash which powers up the vacuum pump haven't you? You don't just press the button on the steering wheel, you need to switch it on too and it doesn't click, the only way of knowing it is working is you don't slow down when you lift off the pedal.

AC, does sound like it is low on refrigerant or it might be the air gap on the compressor clutch is too wide. Check it with a feeler gauge, it should be between 16 and 31 thou. If wider than that, take a shim out from behind the pulley. They do chuck a lot of condesation out, I've had people tell me I've got a water leak when they've seen the big puddle under the car when I've stopped for fuel.

Pre-2000 SRS needs to be reset with diagnostics which is a bit of a pain if you don't have any as you don't know if you've fixed the fault. 2000 onwards turn the light off as soon as you clear the fault. Are you saying the dash isn't working either? No temp gauge or anything or just no warning lights? Put the bulbs back. As long as the oil pressure light and temp gauge works, the others are niceties.

If they intend replacing all the ball joints, including the top and bottom ones then I suppose 11 hours isn't too bad (although with the right tool they should be able to do them in half that), if just the track rods and steering joints it's way over, a couple of hours at most. Parts cost is no more than $300 for the lot if bought from one of the UK suppliers.
 
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Ball joints on a P38 are very heavy. I would just do track rods, there's the track rod and drag link, easy DIY, then have the front end aligned. The guy with the wire cutters may have been trying to silence the complaints from lack of EAS. I would look under the drivers seat and see if there is a bypass module installed into the connector that is supposed to connect to the EAS ECU. If not, that could explain the wire hack job. Regarding the deal, I would grab the $1k and run, you are pretty far into it at this point. My first P38 had a switch installed to manually start the AC compressor. The owner didn't sort out his AC clutch issues, just bypassed it.
 

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Stuff on your list is a pretty common repair item for a P38. As long as you intend to DIY, all the repairs can be done at a reasonable cost. However, if you intend to take any of the repairs to a shop, then costs start to rack up quite quickly. Furthermore, even a dedicated diagnostics equipment for a P38 is relatively cheap and capabilities are on par with LR diagnostics equipment.

If you're a decent DIYer, everything on your list can be handled by yourself at a very reasonable cost.

On your list, balljoint repair is probably one of the harder ones to tackle-primarily because it involves brute force. However, unless they are wiggling around, I imagine you can wait to work on it until you get other gremlins sorted and get acquainted with the vehicle.
 

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Premium Member
1997 P38 4.6 HSE
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27 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
The button does light up on the dash. There is no "click" at any point, pressing that or the set button after and over 28mph. I figure I'm pretty close now, but not the highest priority at the moment.

Thanks for the AC tips!

The dash functions as I'd expect, except the bulbs are not in the cluster. Leaving the "evidence" as is for the moment I guess... until I give my last communication and decision with the seller today. I'd like to not be constantly watching the temp gauge. Will I get alert of overheat besides a check engine light?

So I will likely have to fork some bucks forward as I try to resolve SRS it sounds like. Aside from the pain and expense of not having the equip, have others had success chasing out those gremlins without terrible effort?

I was reading a post about the "right tools" making all the difference. You'd think a local expert shop wouldn't be raking me over the coals for that. I will contact the other private shop expert at "75% dealer cost" to see what he thinks. Should I think about other work while it's apart? From the "it's front end time" post guys are suggesting "wheel bearings and axle seals" (now I see your opinion on not necessary unless needed Richard_G) or "inspect the universal and shaft above the steering box for looseness" or checking radius arms or anything else? Perhaps "whole track rod and drag link instead of bothering replacing ball joints" is a better route? OK, it looks like all answers in the "it's front end time" post. I will look at all the stuff, minus bearings and seals.
 

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You won't get a check engine light for an overheat, you'll get a gauge that climbs toward the red end and a red light when it decides it's got too hot. You'd ideally want to replace axle seals if they were leaking (look for oil around the end of the axle) or if you were replacing the top and bottom ball joints and/or wheel bearings. To get it so it goes where you point it, you need track rods and drag link. The drag link has a ball joint fixed on one end so to do both ends you do need the complete unit. Wear in the lower steering shaft will be pretty obvious as slop at the steering wheel making it near impossible to keep the car in a straight line without constantly correcting, but again, it is a pretty simple DIY job.
 

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1997 P38 4.6 HSE
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27 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
Ball joints on a P38 are very heavy. I would just do track rods, there's the track rod and drag link, easy DIY, then have the front end aligned. The guy with the wire cutters may have been trying to silence the complaints from lack of EAS. I would look under the drivers seat and see if there is a bypass module installed into the connector that is supposed to connect to the EAS ECU. If not, that could explain the wire hack job. Regarding the deal, I would grab the $1k and run, you are pretty far into it at this point. My first P38 had a switch installed to manually start the AC compressor. The owner didn't sort out his AC clutch issues, just bypassed it.
Thanks for the feedback. I just checked it. There isn't a bypass module per-se, but there is the grounded wire and the positive connect wire in appropriate manual over-ride locations. Is this not sufficient to silence warnings? I see on the inter webs there is a harness kit that connects ground and positive (same thing), but there is one with an actual module. I can't see any good info on any actually difference in performance.
 

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The module is just an expensive way of doing what the two wires do. When you first start the car you should get a triple beep and a message on the dash that says, EAS MANUAL, after that it goes away.
 
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1997 P38 4.6 HSE
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Discussion Starter #11
Well, thanks all for all your feedback and some votes! I contacted the seller and asked for a bit more. He promised to pay as soon as he "sells stock" and agreed to a signed contract until that payment happens. He shall remain nameless so long as he honors his agreement. I hate to say it, and sorry (not really) to offend anyone with this comment, but I think he was right wing (judging by the radio stations) and I swear emboldened by the Trump "lie no matter what" approach. Somehow it's worked for Trump all this time... well, so far...

Anyways, thanks again. I'll be keeping it and look forward to continuing to acclimate and take care of it for the long term. Wish me luck and please keep the great support coming!
 

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1997 P38 4.6 HSE
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Discussion Starter #12
The module is just an expensive way of doing what the two wires do. When you first start the car you should get a triple beep and a message on the dash that says, EAS MANUAL, after that it goes away.
I actually get a lot of loud beeps. Definitely not just three. Should I record and share?
 

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Why not? Do you get multiple messages on the dash as well? You'll get a triple beep for each message. Post a video and we should be able to tell you what they all mean.
 

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1997 P38 4.6 HSE
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27 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
I suppose I might as well wait until I have replaced the missing dash bulbs to give a better show. My RH F door latch sensor just started giving hassle. I could swear it started when I took off the interior panel to inspect the speakers and amp, but it seems a coincidence, as the forums informed me that the sensor is in the latch itself. The thing is a bear to open, so I guess it's rebuild time for the front handles too. Now I understand why interior lights don't come on for the driver door. It's stuck or wired in closed position.
 

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LEGACY VENDOR
1995-2002 Range Rover P38A
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I'm not on this forum much any more, but reading through the list of issues you have, and most of them seem like a fairly standard list for a second hand P38 which hasn't had much looking after! Ok, slightly more than normal with the extra relays and solenoid fitted to yours.

BUT

On the electrical side.. I seriously doubt there's an issue with the BECM unless it's somehow been fried or drowned. They are pretty robust and 90% of "BECM Faults" are actually external to it, and either feeding bad information into it, or a faulty device that it's trying to operate, but because it's a big box of black magic voodoo to most Land Rover mechanics, it gets the blame, and quite often replaced at great expense to the owner, without actually fixing anything (and sometimes causing more headaches, as dropping in a second hand one without the proper programming means different fob codes, eka etc - which invariably isn't passed onto the owner, and then screws them when they actually need it and have no idea of what they are).

For example... I have one here on my bench, and it was sent to me as faulty with a list of electrical faults and things that didn't work. I've set it up on my bench test rig, and there's nothing wrong with it. The faults, even as non-interconnected as they seem, have to be somewhere in the vehicle wiring. It's the second or third one I've had in the last few months that is like this - nothing actually wrong with it, but something in the vehicle causing gremlins.

Post up some pics of the additional wiring and the likes and I might be able to identify some things for you or make an educated guess.

SRS issues.. unplug/replug all the connectors and as mentioned the later SRS system will automatically clear on power up if the fault is rectified. You will get a fault if one of the 2 SRS warning bulbs in the dash is blown or missing, so test/replace them too. If you don't get any SRS fault on the dash, but diagnostics can't connect to the SRS module, then it could be that the OBD socket has had water in it (possible if you've said the RH blower fan was faulty - could have been due to water ingress) and corroded pins/wires on the socket will cause you to not be able to talk to the SRS module. Also depending on the diagnostics they are trying to use - they may not communicate properly either.

It's also worth looking in behind the kick panels in the front footwells, as there are connectors in there which are known to get moisture in and go green and corrode. There are multiple different systems that run through these connectors, and will cause all kinds of gremlins. Cruise control wires from the ECU to the vacuum pump under the bonnet run through the ones behind the LHF kick panel.

Locking/RF/Door latches... battery drain and having the RF receiver disconnected are pretty common. Our RF filter is a plug and play solution, and I also do door latches for LHD vehicles... I may have a LHD/LHF one which is refurbished already kicking around if your one proves to be faulty. On my website, under the technical information section there is a downloadable pdf file which you can use to test the microswitches in your current door latch. It's also worth inspecting the wiring in the door as if it hasn't been clipped in properly, it can be caught by the window regulator and then can short out wires which give bad signals to the BECM and make weird things happen.

I'd definitely take the $1K from the guy and use that to fix it up - it might cost a bit more than that overall to sort it out, but I don't think any of the 'big ticket' items like BECM will need doing, but worse case if there is a fault there, then I can sort that kind of thing out on the bench here, probably for less than buying a replacement set and I'll do it all properly so your vehicle identity/vin/mileage/codes etc are all preserved! But I seriously doubt that it would come to that.

EAS - you should get a single BEEP and EAS MANUAL on the dash, given you have the wiring jumpers installed for that - if you have loads of other warnings, then it may get lost in the beeping and messages on the dash - but I would start by tackling one thing (like all the random wiring/relays etc) and getting that working, and then going through it systematically.

Best of luck - post some pictures up and it will give us a bit more to go on when offering advice!

Marty
 
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Premium Member
1997 P38 4.6 HSE
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Discussion Starter #16
Thanks a lot for the lengthy and detailed reply, as well as everything you do to help the community keep these old trucks running!

As others have said, I was already invested before discovery the f**kery amiss in my vehicle, not to mention, the dream was well under way. You and others have helped guide me to the right starting points and paths to get this thing up to snuff again. My gut is worth little in this matter, but it's telling me that the BECM is likely OK and it's time for a gremlin safari. I was further worried when I discovered the seller of the P38 had a Texas phone number (many have been "cleaning water damaged hurricane flood car titles), but it doesn't look like there is any obvious unusual water damage. I think it's just a regular old butchered vehicle. A couple things have proven simple stupid fixes. I can't believe this guy put a $20 generic AliExpress head unit and went through the trouble of running new wires and cutting holes for 4 crap speakers, while ignoring the possibility of the working existing great sound system. It takes a few minutes to figure out if its there and at least get great sound with a whine... sheesh. This tells me surely many/most other things are going to be the same in this vehicle.

It looks like I'll have to put in an order with you Marty on a few items and we'll cross that BECM bridge down the road if I get there. I obviously need the RF filter and might as well get some other odds and ends while we are at it and doing overseas shipping. I'll run the latch test posted on your site to see what's going on there and if I could use one of your refurb units kicking around. I definitely could use a LHD RHF refurb latch due to the simple fact that it is a crunchy bear to pull open and its sensor is constantly tripping. The LHF pull feels OK-ish, but likes to stick out and, as I mentioned, the sensor isn't working. Speaking of RHF, perhaps this is why the alarm has gotten tripped and I came out to a dead battery this a.m.? My friendly down the road hooked up the current battery to his expensive rig and it rejected it with extreme prejudice. It can force receive a charge from the alternator, but it's obviously shot. I have no idea how snappy a P38 start should be, but this is obviously soft and slow. It was recommended that I get the largest AGM battery that will fit. I found a local new and refurb battery shop (while writing this) that had what I needed for US$80 in AGM w/ 850+ CCA. Besides RF filter and refurb latches, what other odd's ends might I use from you, Marty? I could see seat heater thermostats for self install, although I don't know the state or ability of these seat heaters... I just like good hot seats in this cold region. I better check to see if self repair might be needed or an option. It doesn't appear you have the dash LED's for sale, but perhaps you can recommend? I'm fine with soldering. I bought a pack of P38 LED's from eBay, but I'm not too happy. They are certainly not tailored to the vehicle and have may SMD's pointing in directions that make the light wasted and not shine through openings to the cabin etc. I would imagine something better is larger and less SMD's only pointing and located where needed. Also, possibly your attenuator circuits? I didn't see those for sale.

I've figured out running RAVE on a Mac with Adobe Reader and started to get my head around it so I will do all of my requisite searching and testing before I ask more of others on this thing. I don't know where the wires were pulled from that plug into the relay in the dash, but perhaps I can get in there a little deeper to figure it out.

Thanks Again!
 

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LEGACY VENDOR
1995-2002 Range Rover P38A
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Sounds like you'll get along just fine with the P38 if you're happy to tinker and get things working again...
If you want to drop me an enquiry message off the website (that way it'll come through to my email address - in case I'm not on here as often), then we can look into any/all the bits that you might need/want/desire!

I will have a look at my latch stash, and see what I have already made up LHD wise - I know I might have something already done from when I've made one up for someone who then hasn't ordered it. Failing that, I can look into assembling ones that you need - I am sure I have enough parts here to do it!

I don't have a few things listed on the website, no - as some of the things I've done either haven't had as much interest as I'd need to make it a common thing (Like the LED conversions), or it's come down to not having enough time to make loads of parts up to keep a stock of them. Things like attenuators, I can make to order, and it's just a case of me making sure I have enough resistors/connectors etc to assemble something. But it you want to drop me an 'ideal' list, then we can go through it and work it out!

It does sound like that with a bit of TLC, you'll have a pretty decent P38, and the knowledge to keep it maintained and running happily!

Cheers,
Marty
 

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You bought the rail system from me on ebay. Sorry your rig is giving you so many problems. I'm pretty sure I have a couple of extra latches with the rest of my spares. If you can't source one from the local pick-a-part you mentioned let me know & I'll see what I can find.
 

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1997 P38 4.6 HSE
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Discussion Starter #19
You bought the rail system from me on ebay. Sorry your rig is giving you so many problems. I'm pretty sure I have a couple of extra latches with the rest of my spares. If you can't source one from the local pick-a-part you mentioned let me know & I'll see what I can find.
Thanks a lot for the offer. Marty is looking to see if he has the right ones rebuilt or rebuildable for me. I'll let you know if he doesn't turn anything up. This is one of the things I'm weighing between time/money cost and figure I'll pay Marty for a quality rebuild and I install. I am happy to rebuild if he doesn't have the parts however. What else do you have for our trucks....? I need quite a bit of stuff. I'll PM you.
Thanks!
 
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