[pontoon]

Hi , i am a little confused by what i am reading so i have a question.

I Have a 2005 range rover hse and she has succesfully reached the 240,000 mile ("stone" )without any major issues. Everything is original in the engine compartment except for the alternator which i had to change at around 150k miles.

I have decided not to push my luck too much with her as she has done alot of heavy towing to this point and something tells me its time to give her some TLC.

At the moment i have the front end stripped down for close inspection of the timing chains gudes etc and i think i did it just in time as one of the guides is missing half its plastic body.

Anyways i have decided to change all chains except the oil pump one (tightening ), will also be changing the guides and tensioners then doing my vanos seals.i am also putting on a new lower cover as my water pump threads seem to be beyond helicoil repairs at this point.

My question is.. why do people freak out when the chains skip a few teeth on the sprockets during the timing chains removal/installations?

From what i gather as long as you have the cams locked and the engine at TDC with cylinder 1 in firing position there should be nothing to worry about in what the chain does.

i see no marking on the chains or sprockets to suggest that specific links must be attached to specific sprocket teeth. correct? And i have memorized RAVE and there is no mention of this anywhere there or on the beisans precedure for the vanos,YET i keep reading of people worrying themselves sick when the chain comes loose and they feel that the engine timing is gone due to this.

Correct me if i am wrong but to me it does not matter how you place tht chain on the sprockets AS LONG as TDC is present and cams are lock correct?
Thank you.

 

[kg74]

Once the Vanos and exhaust sprocket bolts are locked and timed the chain orientation to cam and valve position is set. If the chain moves off this position and the vanos and exhaust sprockets are locked - the cam and valve positions are altered. At this point, as the M62 is an interference engine, valve and piston damage could occur. The fear is when this happens and the M62 is running.

During installation and/or removal the concern is minimal as the forces are slight if any plus the proper procedure works around valve to piston contact.

If one loosens the vanos and exhaust sprocket bolts - the timing chains will move and not the cams removing the risk of valve to piston contact. Assuming timing is messed up, if one turns the engine to the 45 degree mark, loosens the vanos and exhaust sprocket so the chain freewheels then installs the timing blocks and pins the crank there is no issue when moving the crank back to pin the engine.

It gets tricky when one experiences valve to piston contact while trying to get to the "neutral state". In this scenario one has to loosen the vanos and exhaust sprocket bolts and slowly turn the cams and crank to work through the issue. When this is the case, the chances are the valves are already bent as rotating the cranks encounters piston to valve contact. If one is in this scenario - the prudent approach is to properly set the timing and do a leak down test to check for bent valves.

Regarding your other posts about the oil pan gasket. I have seen some cut the gasket clean at the seam and then buy a new gasket and cut it to fit. Using RTV at the joint. Others just clean the cut gasket and do the same - still others carefully get a flat blade in there and carefully separate the gasket w/o damaging it - then clean and RTV.

 

[pontoon]

Thanks kg 74.. i still dont understand your first paragraph .. so
vehicle is stripped down.
Chain is exposed , nothing has been loosened yet , cam locks are in place.
tdc is in place and cylinder # 1 is in firing position,.. can i now tke of the chains without worrying about which link sat in which sprocket tooth?
To be more specific does it matter if the sprocket spins after cams are locked how the sproket fits to the chain links? if so why ?because i see no marks on the chain that specifically fit a specifit sprocket tooth.

 

[pontoon]

Once the Vanos and exhaust sprocket bolts are locked and timed the chain orientation to cam and valve position is set.so can i remove the chain at this point and does the link to sprocket tooth orientation matter? If the chain moves off this position and the vanos and exhaust sprockets are locked - the cam and valve positions are alteredOk so how does one remove a chain to replace it if it doing so will alter the cam and valves position even when locked? At this point, as the M62 is an interference engine, valve and piston damage could occur.i get that , my issues is when to remove the chain and if putting the new one on has any special procedure/marking that need to align between the sprockets and the chain links. The fear is when this happens and the M62 is running.understood.

During installation and/or removal the concern is minimal as the forces are slight if any plus the proper procedure works around valve to piston contact.

If one loosens the vanos and exhaust sprocket bolts - the timing chains will move and not the cams removing the risk of valve to piston contactThis statement sort of answers my question but only half way ...Assuming timing is messed up,why would timing be messed u if cam locks are in place? if one turns the engine to the 45 degree mark, loosens the vanos and exhaust sprocket so the chain freewheels then installs the timing blocks and pins the crank there is no issue when moving the crank back to pin the engine There has been no free wheeling of anything thus far.. nothing has moved yet.. i am trying to understand this before i touch anything...if i remove the old chains will anything change? and how does the new chains links get on to the right sprocket tooth or doesnt that matter?

It gets tricky when one experiences valve to piston contact while trying to get to the "neutral state It would get tricky.. isnt this why you find TDC while chain is on ?. In this scenario one has to loosen the vanos and exhaust sprocket bolts and slowly turn the cams and crank to work through the issue .thx but i do not have this issue. When this is the case, the chances are the valves are already bent as rotating the cranks encounters piston to valve contact. If one is in this scenario - the prudent approach is to properly set the timing and do a leak down test to check for bent valves.Nothing is out of line on the engine , just routine mainentance of removing old chains and wanting to spool new ones on , that it.

Regarding your other posts about the oil pan gasket. I have seen some cut the gasket clean at the seam and then buy a new gasket and cut it to fit. Using RTV at the joint. Others just clean the cut gasket and do the same - still others carefully get a flat blade in there and carefully separate the gasket w/o damaging it - then clean and RTV.

i agree , thats the way to go since taking down the entire front end to replace gasket is plain ridiculous.

 

[Keralis]

If the crank pin has been placed in the flywheel, and cams are locked in place and not moving, you can start with following procedure:

Remove bank 1 & 2 intake camshaft timing VANOS wheel. For each timing wheel perform following:

Counter hold intake camshaft and loosen timing wheel mounting nut; left hand thread (24mm socket 1/2" / 1/2" breaker bar, 27mm open wrench).
Note: Nut is left hand thread, thus unscrew by turning breaker bar from left to right (clockwise) (car front orientation).
Note: Intake camshaft is counter held by locking block. But do not rely on this alone as camshaft can be damaged. Further counter hold camshaft at camshaft hex (27mm open wrench).
Remove timing wheel and mounting nut.

 

[kg74]

Yes you can if the engine is pinned and timing blocks are correctly installed. Follow the steps Keralis lists and you will be fine.

Backing up, the information I wrote is an explanation how how the timing ties together.

In your case, as the engine is pinned you know you are at top dead center. If the blocks are correctly on and the letters are facing up on each cam you know your timing is correct with one caveat: Both vanos units have to be turned all the way counterclockwise. If your Vanos bolts did not become loose then your engine is properly timed and it did not jump any teeth - again assuming it was properly timed to start with. From here you can follow the steps Keralis mentions and RAVE.

I see some other questions - so I will expand, but it is all in RAVE. You need to take off the two upper timing covers and the one lower cover to access the guides. To get the chains off you do not undo any links. You take off the Vanos and exhaust sprockets and timing guides. This allows you to install the 2 cam chains and 1 timing chain in one piece. As the exhaust sprocket is off the cam chains are easy to put on - there is no key and the timing chain will freewheel. Just follow RAVE and route the chains in the order prescribed.

You don't have to worry about the 45 degree mark as your timing is correct based on what you are saying.

 

[pontoon]

Thanks keralis , i read that bit in rave and have it memomarized by now .Ishould reprase the question.. if everything is locked the old timing chain is loose and can easily pop off as it is stretched , if i took it off spun it a few times and put it back on would that change anything?(the point i am trying to understand is the chain link to sprocket tooth relationship.thank you

 

[pontoon]

Yes you can if the engine is pinned and timing blocks are correctly installed. Follow the steps Keralis lists and you will be fine.Great thanks.

Backing up, the information I wrote is an explanation how how the timing ties .Thank you , i was able to see that proccess play out in my mind.. the crank shaft is tied to the cams internally so if it turns without the chains it would mess up the timing.

In your case, as the engine is pinned you know you are at top dead center. If the blocks are correctly on and the letters are facing up on each cam you know your timing is correct with one caveat: Both vanos units have to be turned all the way counterclockwise.OK If your Vanos bolts did not become loose then your engine is properly timed and it did not jump any teeth - again assuming it was properly timed to start with. From here you can follow the steps Keralis mentioned.There is one issue i am worried about that i noticed , the cam lodes on my cylinder #1 do not face each other at all , on the left of the engine the outer cam(exhaust cam shaft) lode points to 12 o'clock and the inner (intake camshaft) points to 3 o'clock. rave says this may happen and just to reference the exhaust lode as the timming one may be too advanced.. how do you fix this?

I see some other questions - so I will expand, but it is all in RAVE. You need to take off the two upper timing covers and the one lower cover to access the guides. thx thats already done To get the chains off you do not undo any links Iam aware of that thx , the old chain is so loose it can come off by just lifting it off with one finger.this is what i was trying to ask about.. if i took the chain off and tossed it in the air without marking it and then reinstalled it dos that affect anything?You take off the Vanos and exhaust sprockets and timing guidesThank you i have that process down This allows you to install the 2 cam chains and 1 timing chain in one piece.yes thx As the exhaust sprocket is off the cam chains are easy to put on - there is no key and the timing chain will freewheel. Just follow RAVE and route the chains in the order prescribed i have yet to see a routing pattern on rave for the chains , please share that if you have one.. this was my main question , is there a pattern to be followed for the chain installations? i see noting on rave or beisans systems about this

You don't have to worry about the 45 degree mark as your timing is correct based on what you are saying.[/QUOTE}May be it isnt.. the lodes dont line up as the book says BUT engine has been running like this anyways for 8years.. everything looks clean no bent shafts no scratches and when turning ngine it is turning correctly thus far , just tht the cams dont line up as the book says they should. I will take a good look again this evening to be sure i havent missed anything.Thank you

 

[pontoon]

So the tutorial by gernam auto solutions gave me some answers to my questions too and they seem to have a much more refined method in timing the vanos system , there tools are also much more precise than beisans...

https://www.germanautosolutions.com...tu_cam_tools/m62_mstr_cam_tools_diy.php#thumb
Thank you all for you help/advise , will let you know when the engine purrs back to life and if she is better.

 

[kg74]

Pontoon - you beat me to the punch. I just logged in and copied the exact link you just posted. I knew this would clarify how the routing worked and give you a good look as to how the chains work.

Answering some of your questions from above. Starting at the head. Each cam, without a chain or lifters installed will rotate 360 degrees forwards or backwards freely. The chain is what stops the rotation (other than the lifters which get forced down by the lobes). Once the chain is installed the two cams on each bank are tied together and will rotate together. Each sides cam chain tensioners will keep, respectively, Bank 1 and Bank 2 cam chain tension correct. For timing all you need to worry about, as your engine is timed correctly for 8 years, is that the letters on the back of the cams are facing up. All four need to be facing up. If you put your timing blocks on and all four cams have their letters facing up, don't worry about the lobes. At this point your cams are correctly set. What was two independent cams on each bank, becomes two joined cams on each bank.

Moving on. The cams are tied to the crank with the timing chain. When all is in order and the timing chain is properly tensioned, timed correctly and the vanos bolts and exhaust sprocket bolts are locked what was multiple pieces becomes one. The timing chain, receiving rotational forces from the crank, turns the cams via the Vanos chain sprocket. I hope this helps you see how the entire system works. The direction of the chain is irrelevant. It is just a long chain. Some like to reinstall a chain in the same direction that it originally turned. But there is no set point on BMW chains. You can toss it in the air and reinstall it.

Now - your timing chain has excessive slack. What you describe is not abnormal if your timing chain tensioner has been removed. The timing chain tensioner is is on the front side of Bank 1.

Does this clarify?

 

[pontoon]

YES SIR!..it does clarify and it appears i am on the right track and in step with your thought process, thank you , i needed a second opinion just to be SUREi was on the right track , tonight i will be observing closely for those A & E marks on the back of my cams, my engine has a special copper like coating on the insides unlike the ones i am seeing in the tutorial photos , this makes it hard to read the letters but i will home in on them with lights.
Thank you.. will update when i am done with the service and shes alive and kicking again.. BTW have you done any servicing on the differentials??

From what i gather there is a re-setting that can eliminate slack on the worm wheels during an overhaul.. I have some play when shifting from drive to reverse...with the mighty amount of havy towing i have been ding i need to overhaul both my differentails before putting th old gal back into some more heavy towing...last year she towed 6-9,000 lbs of trailer every month for about 800 miles.. so a service is definitely due.what an amazing vehicle.. the storms i have endured with her....

 

[kg74]

The "special copper coating" is just engine oil film. It can be cleaned off, but really no point to it. You don't want it to get "furry" though as it will then collect more engine sludge. The rear of the cam shafts should be dark metal - the lettering will be obvious. It will be only on one side of the square for each cam - and if your blocks are properly installed with the engine pinned (based on what you have stated) they should be pointing up.

 

[Keralis]

If the timing blocks go into the cams, it should be fine.

When the engine is timed and torqued, rotate it at least 3 times clockwise by the crank bolt. After rotating the crank, install the VANOS wheel jig, and cam locking blocks. These should all line up perfectly if the engine is timed correctly.

With the standard timing tools, it is very well possible you can do this twice. I've found that the German Solutions tools are of much higher quality.


I have to say, my 2005 was one of my favourite trucks to long term own. Love the sound and performance of the M62. The new AJ-V8 trucks are so quiet..

 

[pontoon]

Yes thank you saw theletters and all is good. thank you

 

[pontoon]

Thank you yes 2005 RR is a fantastic truck.. about rotating the engine.. i seem to be able to do so with eas going counter clockwise than clockwise.. somtime going clockiwise it goes a bit and at times it seems stuck until i rotate it back wards..is that normal?

If the timing blocks go into the cams, it should be fine.

When the engine is timed and torqued, rotate it at least 3 times clockwise by the crank bolt.will try after it is timed and torqued..as it is right now cant do clockwise smoothly but can do counterclockwise with no trouble After rotating the crank, install the VANOS wheel jigi was under the impression that one should not rotate anything without the whole setup in place.. you can rotate the crank with the vanos units off?, and cam locking blocks. These should all line up perfectly if the engine is timed correctly. ​Gotcha.. will test it out when i am done

With the standard timing tools, it is very well possible you can do this twice. I've found that the German Solutions tools are of much higher quality.


I have to say, my 2005 was one of my favourite trucks to long term own. Love the sound and performance of the M62. The new AJ-V8 trucks are so quiet..

 

[Keralis]

should be going smooth.. are spark plugs removed? could have extra compression

there should also be a click, that is the cam spring back, do not be alarmed by this.

Okay, so basically after the wheel jig is put in, the timing wheel is torqued to the VANOS unit, and all other cam sprocket bolts are torqued on the timing system, you can remove all of this as the engine SHOULD properly be timed.

 

[kg74]

Agree with Keralis it should be smooth if you have the spark plugs out, but you will hear clicks and feel tightness when each cam lobe starts to compress the corresponding lifters. If you watch the lobes during your rotation you will see this.

The engine should not be stopping and requiring you to back up. This back up could be b/c you did not set your Vanos fully counter clockwise correctly (assuming you have properly tightened the vanos and exhaust sprocket bolts). The only other possibility, which I experienced on engine #2, is that the block is toast and the resistance you are feeling is the piston going through gouges.

Can you post some pictures of the rear of the cams with the blocks on, showing the lettering, and the engine pin installed?

 

[kg74]

I tried to edit my response, but the site timed me out.

I reread your comments in blue in your last post.

Question - before trying to rotate the crank did you torque to spec the vanos and exhaust sprocket bolts? If not that is your issue. Stop what you are doing and write back so we can help you rectify the situation before you cause valve damage.

 

[pontoon]

I tried to edit my response, but the site timed me out.

I reread your comments in blue in your last post.

Question - before trying to rotate the crank did you torque to spec the vanos and exhaust sprocket bolts? If not that is your issue. Stop what you are doing and write back so we can help you rectify the situation before you cause valve damage.

Hi tHank you for the wise input i have not started doing anything yet with teh vanos etc.. so far i have only stripped the engine down and waiting on all parts to come in befoe i proceed , i have not removed the spark plugs yet.. that would explain the difficulty in fwd rotation .Will take all you advise to hear as i dig into it.. just not yet...,havent begun removal of the inner working VCC units yet.Thank you will let you know when i do and i will post photos too.

 

[pontoon]

Thanks , i have not started yet kg , and i examined the engine closeley and looked at the oil prior to disposal , the block is ok no shavings not gouges the engine is clean , i have not reset the vanos and spark plugs are still all in .will advise as soon as i dig into it. currently away from the entire project.
QUOTE=kg74;2213234]Agree with Keralis it should be smooth if you have the spark plugs out, but you will hear clicks and feel tightness when each cam lobe starts to compress the corresponding lifters. If you watch the lobes during your rotation you will see this.

The engine should not be stopping and requiring you to back up. This back up could be b/c you did not set your Vanos fully counter clockwise correctly (assuming you have properly tightened the vanos and exhaust sprocket bolts). The only other possibility, which I experienced on engine #2, is that the block is toast and the resistance you are feeling is the piston going through gouges.

Can you post some pictures of the rear of the cams with the blocks on, showing the lettering, and the engine pin installed?[/QUOTE]