[mrpotatohead]

So far so good I think, with this procedure. Ended up ordering the crank pulley holder tool to get the crankshaft bolt out. Easy once I had the tool. Anyhow...

Doing the zip tie method. Used multiple zip ties and other visual checks to make sure no skipped teeth, or at least I'll know if it did. BTW my timing chain has two yellow marks, apparently nothing that references the mark on the fixed plastic guide. ??? Anyhow again...

What's the trick to wiggling the old rail out??? Can't go up, or down. Seems it might not be an issue if the timing chain isn't there, or is very loose. What am I missing?

Thanks!

 

[Keralis]

the workshop manual says to take off the chain..it can be assumed it will give enough room for the rail to be removed.

Or..try harder to pull it out without damaging anything else, and have the issue of possibly damaging the new guide.


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[timc]

I know this does not address your question, but why do you have to use zip ties if you have all the cams and crank locked with the appropriate locking tools?

 

[BillConn]

I know this does not address your question, but why do you have to use zip ties if you have all the cams and crank locked with the appropriate locking tools?

Tim, the ziptie method is a substitute for using the proper timing tools. You leave the chain installed and keep it tight against the sprockets via several snugged up zipties. As long as the chain I kept real tight and doesn't skip any teeth, all is good.

 

[timc]

SO he is only replacing the rails/guides and not the chains, I guess making it difficult to remove the rails, hence his problem of removing the rails/guides?

Sorry for off topic on this....

 

[BillConn]

SO he is only replacing the rails/guides and not the chains, I guess making it difficult to remove the rails, hence his problem of removing the rails/guides?

Sorry for off topic on this....

Yep. While I have not done this job yet myself, supposedly the driver side guide takes quite a bit of finesse to remove w/ the chain in place.

 

[flat12]

I have not seen the "zip tie" method before - interesting. I have performed several major services on several italian engines (V8 and V12), and I made some nylon wedge shaped tools that go in between the intake / exhaust cams, there is a bolt through the center of the wedges, just gently tighten it up and it "locks" the cams in place. If the plastic chain guides have a groove worn into them from the timing chain - that only adds to the difficulty in removing them...may need to get some slack in the chain if possible.

 

[MARK_C]

i've used the Ziptie method when replacing guides and tensioners on the old (96 to 2004) Cadillac northstar engine, and Audi A4 engines (1.8L and 2.6L). You ziptie the chains to the cam sprockets then remove the sprockets from the cams (making sure the cams don't rotate - or marking them so you can put them back), then with the sprockets and chains hanging in space theres plenty of slack, and ofcourse they only bolt back onto the cams one way so it's not to hard to getthem back in the right place. Even if you only took one sprocket off theres enough slack to get the guides and tensioners out. Works good if you are careful and check everything 3 times when you get it back together.

 

[diff]

Mark. Thanks for elaborating a bit about your background. Like where does this guy know this stuff!! I really appreciate finding practical and yet ingenious solutions to prevent very expensive mistakes.

 

[MARK_C]

You just have to be cheap enough to want high end cars that have issues that you can get cheap. The old Northstars had horrible overheating problems caused by the head bolts pulling out of the heads. I've pulled three of them out with nothing more that some jack stands and a floor jack, drilled the bolt holes out and rethreaded them with the proper inserts and put them back. Thats how you can drive a 50K car (or truck) for about a grand. Theres nothing magical about mechanical work, its the electrical stuff that causes me fits, and I work as an electrical/instrumentation and controls engineer but these car systems drive me crazy. I can eventually fix them but they are not as easy as doing the straight mechanical stuff.

 

[mrpotatohead]

First, sorry for seemingly abandoning this thread. I had subscribed to it but apparently wasn't set to receive notifications. fixed!

Tim, the ziptie method is a substitute for using the proper timing tools. You leave the chain installed and keep it tight against the sprockets via several snugged up zipties. As long as the chain I kept real tight and doesn't skip any teeth, all is good.

It's actually an official factory method. And, in retrospect, granted you're playing with fire, but it's not like we're talking about a toothless belt here. the chain would have to be really loose to skip a tooth. best to keep it as tight as possible. I'm just saying that it's a bit forgiving.

Doing it this way saves a boatload of time, and with all the saved time is reduced chance of screwing something else up (first-timer). The only thing is, you don't have access to the back of the cams, so can't lock them in place. Speaking of such, I came across a thread somewhere, where the poster said he did the zip tie method, the zip tie broke, chain skipped teeth, and it was a huge PITA to get it back in time. --- OK, good point. so, when doing the zip tie method, as the procedure says, get the crank and cams in the right position, so that if there was a slip, you're not far off. Imagine trying to rotate one cam all the way around without moving the crank...

Also use good zip ties, heavy-duty, long enough, and preferably white so less chance of being forgotten. I used https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07DZTBDJ7
(white ones)

I saw a comment in youtube which led me to Scott at www.driveline.online, who took the time to answer (if you're anywhere near SLC, have him do this job!!!!). He said you need to remove the fixed guide on the passenger side. No finagling would get the driver's side guide out otherwise. So, did that, and it came out with only a little finagling. I put that part back right away as I hate having more things disassembled than I need. So of course then I had to take it back out to put the new one in... yep...

I know I'm skipping around, but as others have said and is generally good practice, gotta put marks on the chain and adjacent parts, so you'll know it if it did skip. My chain didn't have the colored links described in the manual. Had yellow ones which didn't seem to line up as expected. take lots of pix. I also put zip ties on the crank end, because, why not?

When I was removing the crank bolt, I think a lot of people (maybe on other engines) lock the flywheel only, but after I tried that and was scared off by how much my breaker bar was flexing, fearing that it was the crank flexing, I opted for a copy of the factory tool, via alibaba (handy-force). $200 for the set plus $180 express shipping. With the tools, and a shiny new 3/4", 24" breaker bar via Amazon, removing the bolt was very straightforward, as was the crank pulley. Note about the crank pulley removal tool, or more specifically, a copy thereof: you need to trim about 3/4" off the small end so you can leave the radiator in. Then grind flats on the end so you can still hold it and not mangle the threads.

I knew my tensioners were failing because, well, they all do, but also, I used a gasket pick to reach thru the oil fill cap, and at times, motor off of course, I could feel slack in the chain. Should be tight like a guitar string, as has been explained elsewhere.

Let me say, I've done a ton of work on BMWs, and there are a bunch of things that are similar in style if not in actual shape here. That said, boy, this took a long time, mainly just trying to be super-careful, marking connectors, keeping fasteners with parts, making notes, etc. I'd say at least 30 hrs of actual work. stressful at times. Worst part? pressing the start button at the end. Turned out OK.

Ready to call me cheap? I re-used the antifreeze. Use a tube on the bottom of the radiator to channel it into a clean pan, set that under the truck, then later, use a big funnel and a paint sieve when putting it back in. Sieve removes any significant crud. The previous owner had just replaced the water pump and coolant, so why not. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000PA09V0 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00AAHTBJE

 

[Keralis]

Nice. I think you’re one of the few that had actually completed the job on this forum. Both of my current 5.0s have had them done at others expense fortunately.


A few questions though for sake of knowledge.

Did you replace the injectors?

Are your VVT units quite loud? Whether at cold, warm, idle, load, etc,

what mileage did you get to on original timing components?

Did you remove the intake manifold?

And finally, where did you get the new timing components?

Thanks, and congratulations on the successful job..


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[mrpotatohead]

I did not replace the injectors. 33k mi, no other symptoms. Saw no need; and, by doing the "zip tie method", all the injector stay in place. Ditto timing chain, sprockets, fixed guides, etc. The whole idea for me was to do this job sooner rather than later and avoid replacing all the other stuff. Do it early while the repair is smaller.

Unfortunately I still have some noise that I wouldn't consider normal for a DI engine. Could be a lifter, or the fuel pump cam followers (i guess that's common?). Possibly the VVT units but based on not much, doesn't sound like that's it.

Intake manifold stays on. In fact the valve covers stay on, except that the front few bolts are loosened and it's flexed up a little.


Another important note from my experience: when the tensioners and rails were in, the procedure says to hold the guide rail inward (tension the chain), then pull the pin on the tensioner so it pops out. Easy enough. Then, try to push the guide outward, IE compress the tensioner. Tried that on one side and it did go in a little. Maybe would have more with more force. Dunno. Procedure says that if the rail can be pushed back fully, basically go back and replace the tensioner. Figured they're all factory new parts, and the procedure wasn't perfect anyway, so I just put it all back together. Now I hear some knocking... grrr... If there's an upside, it's that replacing the tensioners (again), only, and not updating the rails, and having the experience and the right tools, it's possibly a half-day's job.

 

[mrpotatohead]

Another note on getting the driver's side guide out: as said above, need to take the passenger side fixed guide out. As I recall, I had to take the passenger side tensioner/rail out too. Which caused one of the cams to move five degrees or so... ugh... but the chain stayed on the gears, just slack moved around. not a good feeling in the tummy. in putting it back together, you end up tugging the chain back and all is well again. I assume that's why the procedure has you put the crank key way in 6-o'clock position for the driver's side, then 9 o'clock for passenger side -- so that the cam pair lobes are pointing in directions that they're stable, not wanting to pop this way or that. So, doing both sides at the same time, that's why the passenger side will want to move.

I had daydreamed of a couple of holders that would go over the cam end screw heads, and hold them in place while the procedure is being done. Much more secure than zip ties. The crank won't move on its own. then everything is locked/stable and there's much less risk of puking later on.

 

[mrpotatohead]

Tool was from HANDY FORCE CO, LTD, and called "Petrol Timing Tool".
https://handyforce.en.alibaba.com/p...s_of_Auto_Repair_Tools_Engine_Timing_Kit.html
I already had the timing tool kit that's all over ebay. The above comes with everything you need for the procedure I used.

Baum Tools also has the kit. In stock in FL; much more $.

I "rented" a generic crank pulley tool from autozone. studs that go in the pulley seemed to fit precariously loose. Center rod didn't fit the end of the crank properly -- would need to be sure that the crank wasn't getting marred. maybe a simple solution there. Mainly I got the kit for the pulley holder. Note, the holder ends up sticking off to the side (three oclock) for removal, left hand thread crank bolt. so, I cut a board to length, that went in between that and the truck's frame. LR procedure has a jack stand there; but the frame is in the way.

 

[mrpotatohead]

And finally, where did you get the new timing components?

I got the parts from LRDirect
LR011952.L8 Qty 1 $17.96 (crank bolt; it's a stretch fit, like head studs. can't re-use the old)
LR051008.L8 Qty 2 $228.50 tensioners
LR051013.C8 Qty 2 $71.78 rails

you also need at least one M16 washers, so when you temporarily re-install the crank bolt after removing the pulley, to rotate the crank, you need the washers as spacers
Also need two M10? nuts, for the starter bolts. You remove the starter (or take out the two bolts and carefully let it dangle), and put a tool in its place using the same bolts. but you need nuts to go with the bolts.

and yellow masking tape and a sharpie to mark everything you disconnect, hold bolts in place, etc.

I didn't even need to add oil; mine was recently changed. good time to do an oil change if necessary.

procedure suggests a new lower cover. I used same since mine was young.

 

[timc]

Good Job! man, that seems 100 times harder than doing same work on the m62, I am so glad i bought my wife a SCV6, hopefully it won't have same issues.....(and I am not saying the m62 is a better or worse engine, just seems more work on the jag)

 

[Keralis]

This also seems a bit more difficult than the 4.4/4.2 Jags as well..I don't believe it is the worst. At least it is not an Audi 4.2.

 

[timc]

This also seems a bit more difficult than the 4.4/4.2 Jags as well..I don't believe it is the worst. At least it is not an Audi 4.2.

And I used to think timing the cams on a 911 engine was tricky, i'll appreciate the simplicity next time....

 

[newmanium]

One tip - when removing the right (looking at the engine) tensioner guide, it doesn't come out unless you separate the plastic part from the metal. It's a bit finicky to get the tabs to undo, but once you do it slides out easy. I also separated the pieces on the new one, it's fairly easy to rejoin once located. The old one I actually broke and had a small piece of plastic fall inside the engine, it's hard to work with all covered in oil. Left side is easy, comes right out.

When the new tensioners were on, has anybody noticed how the chain/tensioners behave when rotating the crankshaft around 1 or 2 turns? Is it smooth? For me, the right tensioner on a full cycle goes back and forth a bit in its range, you can hear some clicking - it basically will go down to the first pop-out indent that the manual has you check for, and then push out maybe 1/4".

Just curious if this is normal or not. Perhaps when engine is running it's more stable, I saw a video that seemed to suggest this was normal, but no videos of people rotating the whole engine and how it's "supposed" to look.