[WolfPack]

Hey everyone! Quick background: 2001 RR 4.6 - 95,000 miles. Did spark plugs at 94000 miles. Only replaced 2 wires that were corroded due to time constraints (I know I know :doh: ). No problems till last Thursday. The girlfriend's RR had trouble starting in the morning. It hesitated and did an extended crank..then finally started, then ran fine until she parked at work. At 5 pm she went to leave, and it was a no start. Just extended crank. I met up with her 20 min later, still no start. Definitely sounded like no fuel getting to the engine. I tried the fuel cutoff switch, checked the relays, all looked good, but still no start. As a last ditch effort, crawled underneath the Range and gave the pump area a couple good whacks....annnd it started right up. Nursing it back home, it stalled out again 15 miles later. Whacked the tank again, got one more start, and made it to the driveway. Didnt drive it and looked into fuel pump replacement options, and yesterday I started tearing into it. But before starting on an access panel in the cargo area, tried starting it up..and it fired right up. Repeated a few more times, tried revving it, etc, all worked fine. So now im not convinced it's the fuel pump :think:

So the questions are: 1) Should I just do the fuel pump as the truck has 95k on it?
ooorrr
2) Hold off on fuel pump and just do fuel filter and in the process check fuel pressure and go from there?

Or have I missed something completely, and just do the other 6 plug wires and THEN go from there? Thanks for the help!

*Edit* - Now rereading all that...Im wondering if it has something to with not wanting to start when hot? Maybe my fuel tank whacks just gave more time for whatever the problem is here to cool off...?

 

[keithdixon]

Starter switch wire corroded / bad connection


or crank position sensor going bad

 

[WolfPack]

Since you said starter switch wire and not ignition switch...Im assuming you mean the connection at the starter could possibly be corroded? Ill look into that. Thanks for the quick reply!

The crank position sensor option sounds pretty painless. The info on RR.net sounds promising...the engine was misfiring when cold which is what prompted the spark plug change...and when I hooked my Scanguage up to look for store codes when the truck was not starting it still had misfire codes stored (I cleared them when I did the plugs). I dont have the RAVE disc with me, and ill check it later..but in case it does not outline the CPS replacement...anyone have some pointers? Also I know on my blazer a CPS replacement means a crankshaft relearn has to be preformed...is that the same with Rovers?

 

[keithdixon]

Yes, connection at the starter.

The CPS is straight forward 2 bolts to remove & replace, did mine 1 month ago and did not need to hook up to testbook to reset.

 

[Hoges]

Am presuming the RR in question is a 2001 model? The CPS on the Bosch Motronic is a different design from the GEMS and is far more durable...indeed it shouldn't need replacing at all. Have you checked all earth points?
would like to hear how you resolve it
cheers

 

[WolfPack]

Yep it's a 2001. I have not checked the grounds though. Ill start with the starter connections...but I havnt had any other electrical issues...or other issues either way (short of the misfire and no start). Im still thinking the CPS is worth a shot..everything Im reading about it seems to match up with the problems ive experienced so far.

Come to think of it though...are there any engine grounds near the back of the block at the firewall? I dont recall seeing one, but I very possibly could have knocked one when swapping the spark plug wires :think:

 

[jsp]

I just replaced my fuel pump, in fact two of them, last weekend.

Easiest way to tell if the pumps good is to simply loosen the hose in the engine bay and see if petrol leaks out when the ignition is turned to the II position, as the BECM runs the pump for 2 seconds to pressurise the system before crank.

 

[jgreene]

Even easier if you use the Schrader valve on the fuel rail to check for pressure.

How was cutting the hole in the floor? Dropping the tank is really not hard.

 

[WolfPack]

I agree..Ive dropped quite a few fuel tanks (but all on GM vehicles) and its not as bad of a job as it seems. Im not against dropping the tank, the only problem I have against it is the 22 gal. of fuel she had just put in I did attempt to check for pressure at the fuel rail...butttt got held up by not being able to find the schrader valve. Can you point me in the right direction? Front/back of block? Is it hiding underneath a hose or something? Then again, it does seem to be starting up with no problem now. That's why I keep thinking back to the CPS sensor..

jsp -- It looks like you pulled out all of your rear carpet to cut the hatch? Howd you get it around the rear seats mounts? I too would be interested to know how hard the job was

 

[jgreene]

Yeah, 22 gals makes a difference. I did mine a few weeks ago... somehow didn't get the backflow valve right. Trying to align an empty tank with a few hours to get back in there....


You've got the Bosch setup - I'm not sure about that one, but here's what it looks like on the GEMS:

 

[PaulP38A]

I did attempt to check for pressure at the fuel rail...butttt got held up by not being able to find the schrader valve. Can you point me in the right direction? Front/back of block? Is it hiding underneath a hose or something?

here... easier to see with the upper inlet manifold removed

cheers, Paul.

 

[jsp]

jsp -- It looks like you pulled out all of your rear carpet to cut the hatch? Howd you get it around the rear seats mounts? I too would be interested to know how hard the job was

Must admit dropping the tank looked like a tedious job to me.
Given I had a petrol leak, and an LPG leak when running on LPG, and the car STUNK, I didn't want to do anything with a grinder so I made bit of a mess by just drilling holes and using tin snips.

Basically as the main site shows, all I did was cut the carpet a bit, push it through under the seat and out of the way, cut the rubber underlay, then you end up with this:

Then I just drilled and cut and bent it up and ended up with this:

Its a very tight fit getting the red plastic nut over the top of the fuel assembly but you can do it. So if I need to get in there again, all I do is flip the seat up, pull the carpet and rubber up, cut through the 3 or 4 layers of duct tape and bituminous spray paint, and bend the flap up.

Whole process of cutting and pulling pump assembly was probably 45 mins. And I am a slow worker. I was happy to see I could put in a local GM pump, with a new one only costing $99.

No cutting or moving seat mounts, no removal of seats.

 

[ghind]

Normally, once the car is running the pump won't stop. Otherwise I'd say pump for sure with your symptoms. My post from a year ago may help you, search ghind

A tip for the meantime, don't turn the key to ON before starting when you have a suspect pump (otherwise I would). That will start the pump, pressurize the fuel system then stop the pump. Then you try to start the car and the fuel pump is trying to start spinning against full 35psi which a weak one won't.

Good times. I did 2000 kilometers of home repairs to get mine home!

Greg

 

[Hoges]

Hi John
a MOST informative post...thank you.Was wondering where to make the cut... :think: your pictures give a pretty good lead. :dance: Was trying to work out whether you have disconnected the fuel filler pipe ?

What GM pump did you use ...model No. etc and do you know whether it will fit the Bosch EFI system?
cheers
hoges

 

[jsp]

Hi John
a MOST informative post...thank you.Was wondering where to make the cut... :think: your pictures give a pretty good lead. :dance: Was trying to work out whether you have disconnected the fuel filler pipe ?

What GM pump did you use ...model No. etc and do you know whether it will fit the Bosch EFI system?
cheers
hoges

I don't wish to hijack this thread.

I didn't undo any pipes except for the three ontop of the pump assembly to get it out.

The pump I used was an aftermarket Holden Commodore VT pump, its a bit bigger but you can make it fit, and its specs are slightly better. Its possibly the same as the one talked about on the main site available in the USA. http://www.rangerovers.net/repairdetails/fuelpump4.html

I highly recomend going to the wreckers and buying a VT pump assembly, which is what I did, as I needed two pumps as the pump on my classic died as well. This made llife a bit simpler as I had bits and pieces to make sure they all fitted together.

 

[WolfPack]

I appreciate the info!!! Thats helpful as I probably will be needing a fuel pump replacement in the future as we're right around 100k. Im looking locally for a CPS so I can easily return it if the problem persists...but so far Autozone, Advance Auto and O'Reily Auto do not even carry a crank sensor for 01 Range Rovers...Im calling Carquest and Walker (Napa) tomorrow. If not, ill just get it from AB and postpone this for a few days. We just got a cold snap here in North Carolina...so I have yet to search out the grounds.

Thanks for the pics showing the fuel test port! Im enjoying the discussion

 

[Hoges]

jsp.. thanks for the info...most appreciated :thumb:
wolfPack.. if you have no luck locally with the CKPS, try http://www.britishparts.co.uk/.sc/ms/ca ... ectrical/3 they offer an excellent international service (personal experience)... there is a button on the website to convert to US$. As an after thought, have you tested for a faulty camshaft position sensor? :think:
good luck

 

[jsp]

Bah my elcheapo wreckers fuel pump died on the way to work this morning, it got me 400 K's. It died mid trip as well, was idling at the traffic lights and it just coughed and died. Wouldnt start untill I flipped it to LPG. Buy new pumps!

 

[WolfPack]

jsp -- I bet it was nice to have that backup LPG system

Hodges -- Thanks for the link! And how would I go about checking the camshaft sensor for a problem? Or is it a swap and see what happens sort of part?

 

[keithdixon]

You can check for mechanical damage, You may be able to check it's output on a multimeter by waving a ferrous object close to the tip.
Or best still stick a new one in and turn the key