[roverohio]

2004 Range Rover, 130,000. I have been working the last few months on timing chain guides. Timing chain cases are back on, tensioner installed, valve covers on and oil back in the crank case. I turned it manually to make sure I wasn't way off on the timing. Then I cranked it with the starter. So far, So good.

I would like to do a test start before proceeding. I was going to install the coils, cam sensors and vanos. Does anything else need to be installed to allow the truck to start? Since I have no coolant, I am only planning to run the truck for a min or less. I just want to be sure I don't have timing issues before proceeding.

 

[Keralis]

that sounds fine, minus well connect all of the electrical connectors. There's one near the injectors that doesn't connect to anything. You'll very likely have a ticking sound from the hydraulic lifters from sitting so long.

 

[kg74]

Oil fill is on Bank 1 and the valve train gets some added coating of oil that Bank 2 does not receive. Generally I like to pour oil on both sides of the heads, covering all the moving components, before finalizing the valve cover installation. Then fill oil as necessary.

Pulling the fuel pump fuse and turning engine over for 10 seconds a couple time should get the oil pump to push oil through the system without the engine starting - priming the system. As I understand the ignition system, someone tell me if I am wrong, the lack of fuel will turn off the injectors.

You state you turned the engine by hand and it "wasn't way off on timing" - what does that mean? You should be able to put the timing blocks back on if the engine is at TDC and the transmission lock pin is in. The rear timing blocks should slide on without issue, but you will have to move the cams. Remove the torx timing access bolts on the upper timing covers and you should be able to slide a 5mm or 6mm (I forget) allen key into the hole and then into the trigger wheel on each side - again with the timing blocks on the back remaining true. Your timing should be spot on. Do this test before final application of RTV on the valve cover.

[Note: Many have had issues with the engine throwing an over or under advanced code even though timing is spot on - resolution (assuming everything is correct) is to move the trigger wheel 1/8" inch. If you have this problem there are many posts on the subject. This error has been blamed on poor quality timing blocks, error in taking up timing chain slack by starting on the wrong side and/or upper timing cover gaskets not being pushed down far enough. Just a warning - it is what it is - but if you get an error this is the most likely problem.]

As to running the engine without coolant. I have reservations here as some say the lack of coolant can put stress on the internal coolant pump seal as it is dry. The impeller is turning and the system is dry (theory seems to make sense). Having never cut one open I am not sure, but maybe coating the coolant pump with some coolant wouldn't hurt.

Did you change your coolant valley pan with a new unit. Now is the time. DO NOT try reusing the old one with RTV - always an epic fail.

I would hook everything up, figure out a way to put a little coolant on the coolant pump impeller, and go for it.

I agree with Keralis that the engine will sound horrible upon first start up. Give it a minute as oil fills the lifters. You are listening for lifter noise - if you hear something else shut it down. Good luck. Make a video and post.

 

[roverohio]

Thanks. Prior toinstalling the valve covers I gave a good coating of oil and both cams and downthe chain so it reached the u-shaped guide (hopefully).

To explain, before I started the chain guides I locked the engine at TDC and installed the blocks, so as far as I could tell, I was ok. Used the jigs and did the vanos timing as well. I’m just super paranoid because I’ve neverdone this before and heard the stories of the mechanical timing being so off,it trashed the engine.

So I cranked the engine around manually using a breaker bar aftertemporarily reinstalling the Jesus bolt then hit it with the starter aswell. The engine seemed to turn overwith out issue. I also wanted to crankit as you say to prime it bit with motor oil. The good thing is as well as no leaks yet either.

I’ll be installing coils, cam sensors and hooking up vanostomorrow and will post back.

Wish me luck (fingers crossed)

 

[roverohio]

Well, I started it. Very loud. I am getting whatsounds like major exhaust leak. Isuspected a cracked cat before beginning this project but it was never thatloud.
Its running a bit rough and I got a CEL could for a misfireon cylinder 8. My suspicion is when Ipulled the driver side valve cover and moved the electrical box out of the way,there were two brown wires that exited the rear that when it to some sort ofconnector over the valley pan and one of them pulled out. I thought I had it back in place, but I amnot sure.
I am not getting the timing code, but since the battery was disconnectedthe OBDII has not come back to full readiness.
And after all that, its cranking not but not starting.
Could the misfire on 8 be due to a timing issue or does itpoint to a coil issue?

 

[CJD]

No, one cylinder misfire is not timing.

I don't understand, you started it and heard the exhaust leak, but then you say it's cranking but not starting?? Which is it?

Personally I never run a motor that is not fully back together. If your timing is off, just cranking it would do as much damage as starting it...so you won't really learn anything. It's hard on coolant seals, first crank to start is hardest on bearings due to low oil pressure, it's easy to fry wires that lay on hot components...to me it's just not worth it. Not to mention CEL codes are meaningless if you have components disconnected.

 

[roverohio]

Thanks, CJD. I knowwhat you are saying. I just wanted to besure before I had it all back together I was not going to have to go back andlook at the timing.
So here is where I am at. After I got the injectors installed, the cam sensors and vanos hooked up, I started it and fired right up. It ran rough and was loud. That’s when I noticed the exhaust issue. I do believe its either a crack cat or manifold, but that is another problem for another
day.

I have a Scansoft reader and after my first test start, itshowed a misfire on cylinder 8. Cleared and started it again, same thing.

I attempted to start it a third time and got a crank no start. Hit it with starting fluid to seeif it was a gas delivery issue and it started hard, but started and ran. The valves have quieted but I am getting aninconsistent ticking noise under the passenger side valve cover near the fill. I am wondering if I did not get out all ofthe plastic timing chain pieces?

I am getting lots of codes since little of the emissioncontrol is hooked up, but what appears to be relevant is now mis-fire incylinder 1. Further, it will not run atall with the air intake hooked to the throttle (I disconnected it to put starting fluid in).

Here are the codes I am getting:

PO208 Injector circuit open cylinder 8
PO102 Mass or voume air flow A circuit low
P1301- Unknown
PO308 Cylinder 8 misfre
PO301 Cylinder 1 misfire.

Ugh.

 

[kg74]

roverohio: You have some open items that need to be resolved.

First, in my prior post I asked you about your comment regarding the timing where you say "wasn't way off on timing." I suggested after you turn the engine by hand that you put the engine at TDC, install the transmission lock pin in and reinstall the timing blocks on the back of the engine, adjusting the cams so that the blocks slide on flat. Did you do this? Did you remove the small torx bolt and check if your trigger wheel lined up? Where the timing blocks for both Bank 1 and Bank 2 flat on the head? You need to have the engine in this condition to assure your timing is correct. These recommendations were made so you would not have the problems you are now having and were trying to avoid. Update with a response - if all checked out then members can focus on other causes. You cannot be off "one tooth" (your other thread) if you followed these suggestions.

Second, you mention a connector that you are unsure of. Provide a picture so we know what you are talking about and what if any impact this will have on your no-start condition. It may be the cause, it may not, but without seeing what you are talking about it is a wild guess.

Third, some of the codes hint that you may have a connection issue (P0208, P0308 and possibly PO301) - it is possible you don't have these connectors properly seated or you have a damaged wire and/or connector. P0102 may hint to having a air pipe leak - clamp not tightened or maybe another connector is not seated correctly.

Fourth, you can most likely have the cat welded at the cracked seam. Another forum member had this problem and had a shop weld it with great success.

Finally - could you provide some information on how the RR ran before you started the entire process and other background info like mileage?

Some of the forum members that have been helping have considerable experience - but you need to provide information and follow suggestions. If you stick to one thread, it is all in one place and easier to follow.

One final note - you need to be extremely careful that you do not cylinder wash your engine and destroy it by trying to repeatedly start it in a no start situations. My wife took out engine #3 on my RR by doing this on a cold winter day. A couple of others have also seen this issue.

 

[roverohio]

It’s a 2004 Range Rover with 131,000 mi. Before the timing chain it ran fine exceptfor the crack in the manifold/Cat. Eventhat was only one start-up. Once tooperating temperature the noise mostly went away. I also had the vanos rattle as well.

When the timing chain issue began I was getting the classicsymptoms/ noises of timing chain failure and pulling the oil pan to find theplastic pieces in the bottom.
Keralis lent me the timing tools including the pin, blocks,jig and tensioner. While the job tookforever, the engine stayed locked and blocks in place during the wholeprocedure.
The problem came when the guides were done, chain back on,blocks removed and engine unlocked. Apparently the tensioner block was not tight enough and when we rotatedit via the crank bolt, the chain jumped on the crank pulley. It was rotated backward and it appeared tojump back what appeared to be the same amount. Looking back I probably should have put the pin and block back in butinstead eyed it.

So at this point I am going to lock the engine back at TDCand install the blocks. I am hoping todo it tonight and I’ll check back.

 

[kg74]

roverohio: All good and helpful info as we now know the car worked and can dismiss certain items.

The "jumped" may be normal as it could be the cam and valves finding a resting point, but the blocks cannot lift off. That concerns me.

Couple things. I used clamps sorta like these: http://www.irwin.com/tools/clamps/quick-grip-medium-duty-one-handed-bar-clamps to hold the blocks on the head. If you align them right you can make them work. You have to start by keeping everything loose so you can get the blocks to correctly settle. Then tighten, adjust and time per RAVE, making sure you start on the correct side (I forget which one it is) as this is important to get rid of chain slack. After you have it all done, remove and rotate engine by hand and then double check by doing it again (optional). You should be able to get the blocks to sit flat with little effort turning the cams slightly.

How do I know - I made the same mistake you made - the result - the same as yours.

Post a pic of that connector you have questions about.

 

[Keralis]

For clamps I made my own out of some 1 inch angle iron, with a hole drilled through to let the stud that holds the oil rail be through, a spacer and a nut can go on that, with the rest of the “tool” sit on the locking block, I had issues with the block popping off and this fixed it.

The knocking noise will be there for a good while, a day of driving. That was the case for my first timing job which took, like in your case, a long time.

As for misfiring, start with taking off the injector wiring block boxes and re seat all of the injectors, I cracked a few of my clips, but still worked. I also had this issue on first start up. It will cause it to shake a bit, make a video if you can how your truck is running.

The blocks can not at all lift off, if they do even move, everything must be put back perfectly and redone. Thus why I created the angle iron tool. It should not have jumped off of the crank pulley, the truck is very likely off. Best idea is to retime the upper portion of the engine. Should be pretty basic, upper timing covers, valve covers, water pump, and vanos solenoids. Taking off the back shelf (where the cabin air filter is retained) is pretty helpful, two nuts and it pulls back. At the same time as all of this, make sure the tensioner has a bit of blue lock tite on it, I've had my 04 leak and I found the tensioner had undone itself over several months. Scary..


Unfortunately, I'm not the greatest at making well written answers, or I suppose any sort of answer, so if there's a direct question I'll do my best to answer.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[roverohio]

Thanks to both. Unfortunately I was not able to get back to the rover last night and I'm working today, so likely either tonight or Tuesday night (working late on Monday). I do want to clear up that the blocks did not come off until the entire procedure was done. I removed them only when the chain/guides were in and beginning the re-assemble. The suspected "jump" occurred when we did a test rotation prior to re-assemble. That's when it jumped on the crank pulley.

Assuming I need to re-time, does the chain (and tensioner) needto be removed or can the cams be rotated by loosening the nut and torx on thefront of the shaft? At that point Iassume I’ll need to use the jigs to reset the timing wheels?

 

[Keralis]

The VANOS and exhaust cam sprockets can be loosened.

http://www.beisansystems.com/procedures/m62tu_vanos_procedure.htm

The above link is the entire process for timing the top end, that would be the easiest route. Pictures included! :thumb:

 

[roverohio]

I was finally able to pull the valve covers and lock thetruck at TDC. Timing is definitely of fas the blocks do not slip down directly on the cams. They are off just enough to not allow that. I am going to do the top end timing procedure to hopefully nip this in the bud.

If I am reading the Beisan Systems instructions correctly, Ineed to loosen both the end nuts (the larger nut and the torx) at the end of each of the four cams, carefully manipulate the cams into position to slide the blocks on, do the vanos timing and tighten back down to spec. Am I correct on this?

 

[timc]

I was finally able to pull the valve covers and lock thetruck at TDC. Timing is definitely of fas the blocks do not slip down directly on the cams. They are off just enough to not allow that. I am going to do the top end timing procedure to hopefully nip this in the bud.

If I am reading the Beisan Systems instructions correctly, Ineed to loosen both the end nuts (the larger nut and the torx) at the end of each of the four cams, carefully manipulate the cams into position to slide the blocks on, do the vanos timing and tighten back down to spec. Am I correct on this?

I just replaced the chains, rails, and rebuilt VANOS units on my 2005 earlier this year. I do not remember having to loosen any nuts/bolts to install the cam blocks. IIRC, I think i did have to very very slightly rotate one or more of the cams to slide the blocks on.