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Radiator Woes (AB ESR74)

3K views 23 replies 10 participants last post by  turnervw 
#1 · (Edited)
This is a public service advisory against the Atlantic British replacement RRC radiator (ESR74). I ordered one back in May and installed it, it seemed decently made and all brass/copper. Well here we are 4 months later and it has sprung not 1, not 2, but 3 leaks, (two of the three shown below) and the driver's side tank has actually developed a crack where fluid is spraying out at high velocity. I took it to the local radiator shop, which has been around since the 1940's, and they told me in no uncertain terms that this was an absolute pile of garbage and not worth fixing. The tube spacing is far to large, the tubes themselves are far too small, and the fin spacing is way too sparse. (I discovered recently that while it cools fine around town, it is woefully inadequate when towing a trailer up to the mountains on a hot day). When I told them how much it cost, you can guess the reaction I got. Needless to say they are going to build me a new one based on a Griffin rad that matches the shape (for less than the AB one cost). Will update with how that goes if anyone is interested.

*Kudos to Atlantic British customer service at least; when told about this, they were very apologetic, offered me a prepaid return shipping label, and a full refund. The offered a replacement instead of a refund initially, but I had no interest in a second one of likely similar quality.
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#4 ·
Mine is a similar story to yours LanceL , supplied through a UK line but looking pretty familiar with the small bit you've shown. Many supply lines here seem to be selling essentially an identical item.

Lasted just over a year before solder joints at top started leaking, won't now hold pressure and running with the reservoir cap undone as it leaks less.

Didn't appear to have cooling issues but not particularly extreme temps here. Pulled a car trailer loaded ok with no adverse heating.

But overall it's poor quality.

I kept the original fit item as I had approached a local rad specialist that said he "could recore it, they are much better quality that current sh*t, pressure tested and warranty inclusive" but couldn't initially decide.

I kind of swung with new as I'd have had the car immobile with oil lines disconnected etc while the build took place. Wish I'd gone with the recore now as I'm down the pattern part cost and back to leaking.
 
#5 ·
Ya I wish I'd have kept and recored the original, but oh well. The new one is a Griffin universal radiator (below). Griffin has a very solid reputation of quality made-in-America radiators. This one will need the 1/4" barbs on the top passenger tank, and different size/angle inlets/outlets, and the mounting brackets, which the shop is addressing. I found it on Summit for $285, plus $150 for the modifications (so much less overall than the AB one). This rad has 2 rows of 1.25" tubes, vs the AB's 3 rows of 0.5" tubes, so a 67% thicker core. The fin spacing is much tighter as well, and there are more tubes stacked. I'll post side by side shots in a bit.

 
#9 ·
Ya I wish I'd have kept and recored the original, but oh well. The new one is a Griffin universal radiator (below). Griffin has a very solid reputation of quality made-in-America radiators. This one will need the 1/4" barbs on the top passenger tank, and different size/angle inlets/outlets, and the mounting brackets, which the shop is addressing. I found it on Summit for $285, plus $150 for the modifications (so much less overall than the AB one). This rad has 2 rows of 1.25" tubes, vs the AB's 3 rows of 0.5" tubes, so a 67% thicker core. The fin spacing is much tighter as well, and there are more tubes stacked. I'll post side by side shots in a bit.

Is Griffin doing this mod or third party? Before I phone them and they not have a clue. Cheers
 
#7 ·
They are not, though there is a version of this rad with a cooler on one side. I never liked the built-in coolers, since in reality both oil and transmission fluid are happier at lower temps that the coolant, making them more like oil heaters than coolers. I installed a remote mount oil cooler with fans built into the front sump guard, and remote transmission cooler with a fan tucked up next to the frame under the driver's seat.
 
#10 ·
I take it are using separate thermostatic valves for each? If not I would worry about over cooling the oil/fluids. The rover setup does look to heat the oil/fluids back up after cooling but only as so much as the engine temp. Warms them up faster if you live in a cold climate.
 
#8 ·
Not to pile on - I like AB, have used them for a long time and continue to use them.

But I bought a ESR74 radiator from AB for my 1992 classic after doing a lot of research, and just decided to pay up. I was surprised that 11 months later I found it leaking. AB was very cooperative and sent me a new one for free (it was within warrant period, I think), and that was about 1.5 years ago and I've had no problems with it since.

Thanks for the heads up on the Griffin...I'll keep that in mind if I have future problems.
 
#11 ·
I understand this setup may not work for everyone, so I'm going to preface all of the options/mods I mentioned above with that caveat. This particular radiator does not have oil or transmission coolers, however there is a version just like it that has a transmission cooler built into the driver's side. I have a variable speed electric fan controller that controls the fans for the radiator, remote oil cooler, and remote transmission cooler. I understand that part of the feature of the in radiator cooler is to function as a fluid heater for cold weather, but I live in Southern California and the truck will never see temperatures below 40 degrees (hence why I removed them). The modifications were done by a local radiator shop that specializes in aluminum welding, they did a really nice job. The fit was great, it dropped right in, and all the hoses lined up (I did have to shorten the bottom hose by about an inch, to soften the bend radius since this rad is ~2" narrower). I actually called Griffin to price out a custom solution (which basically means they modify one of theirs per drawings you send them) but they wanted over $1,000 (yikes!). All in with the rad, taxes, shipping, and all mods, I'm at about $120 less than the AB radiator. Will definitely update with it's performance. I'll be going camping next weekend in the mountains with the trailer, so it'll be a good comparison test.
 
#12 ·
I think the radiator issues stem from the radiator manufacturers and not AB (Or other parts suppliers). I ran into the same aftermarket LR radiator quality issue 8-9 years ago. I got so good at swapping them on my D1, it took longer to drain/refill than remove/install one!

When my LWB needs a new radiator I’m going with AlliSport!
 
#14 ·
The Congleton Icebox looks great for sure, but that's an just absurd amount for a radiator. A genuine RR replacement radiator for a Rolls Royce Phantom is less than that. Will do, pictures coming. I'm sure they would, they do a lot of custom cooling applications for dune buggies, sand rails and other desert toys, so custom aluminum welding/fab is their forte.
 
#15 ·
Griffin radiator is in and working well! I have an digital temp gauge plumbed into the hot side of the heater lines going over the valve cover to give me accurate temps, so for the preliminary before and after: Before, I’d see ~180 average in normal street diving on a 75 degree day. On the freeway, ~190. On a hot day (85+) on the freeway with the AC on, it’d creep up and hover around 200-205. With the new radiator, normal driving is 175-180, and a hot day on the freeway (Yesterday) with the AC on full blast was 173-176. It’s so efficient that the electric fans hardly move at idle. I let it idle outside for about 15 min and the fans were barely turning, and it was sitting at 176 (verified with infrared thermometer). The real test is next weekend, up a long grade with a trailer. The install went well, it dropped right in, no issues. So far I’m quite pleased. (Ignore the messy wiring, took these before I tidied it up)
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#16 ·
Nice looking rad you got there Lance. Aluminum just looks cool too. The whole post has me kinda worried about the AB radiator I've recently installed too... #: ESR3687M, a G&M / Dolphin made in UAE.

Here is my recent experience with the AB replacement in a '95 4.2L LWB.

I wanted the OE because I had faith in the OE design. My last original radiator lasted 264K miles, and I just pull it out in April this year while I rebuilt the bottom end of my 4.2. I've chronicled the rebuild to some extent in other threads. My old radiator leaked minimally but was probably clogged too. It barely overhead and only in the heat of summer.
UI went through two radiators from AB. The first radiator did NOT work because the passenger side oil cooler connections were not square to the radiator's frame. They we angled towards the expansion tank side slightly and the oil cooler lines would not square up. I complained to AB and they sent another. The one I have now is right on the money and working "ok". The bottom hose connection is not angled 100% perfect and slightly kinks the hose to the pump.
Here in Texas with 105 degrees this summer I think the radiator was running in the 205 range according to my analog gauge on the hot side port.
I've kept my old radiator just in case.(If someone wants to buy it let me know.. It is definitely rebuild-able and cores are available in the low $200s. DIY is an easy option if you have the time. Videos on YouTube.) I did go to a local radiator re-builder and was quoted in the $500+ range to re-core. Yikes. So I opted for the OE replacement from AB. Even after I contacted G&M regarding the specs, I learned after the fact that the replacement is not the original design but modified per the explanation below. AB did offer to warranty the radiator I have and I feel confident they will stand behind that warranty. Especially now that a few like you and others have shared their stories of problematic radiators. Like most things today the quality of product is not like the OE as I experienced with the misaligned ports. There just isn't the attention to detail and quality control in the soldering/manufacturing.

The representative from G&M said this about the replacement:
The OE core is 53mm deep but has 4 rows of coolant tubes which are very small by todays standards. The core in your replacement has 3 rows of tubes which have a larger internal diameter – core depth being 45mm thick. However, these modern cores are more than up to the job so you should have no issue with cooling. Just hope the hose being kinked is not affecting coolant flow.

Lance's 1 3/4" inch core measurement of the AB supplied radiator is right in line with what G&M states. I wish I had gone with an Aluminum radiator but it would have been a lot more leg work and the need for the other required hookups would have also been an issue. I wasted money on a new fan clutch so far trying to get more cooling in the hot summer so I may be going the dual electric fan setup that Lance sports. That seems like a good option no matter which way we end up going with a replacement. Good luck to other looking for a replacement. Lots of good advice/options in this post.
 
#17 ·
Well I hope you don't have any issues with the one you have, like was mentioned above it seems to be the myriad of different suppliers who sell to AB that have the issue, so hopefully you got a good one. Mine was made by Glasgow Radiator in Scotland, so with any luck G&M make better products.
 
#18 ·
My G&M had a stamp on the box that said "Glasgow" but was made in Dubai according to G&M... I have been corresponding with Jeff Thorpe from G&M sales. He sent me the original design drawings showing the actual build details and offered explained the core size difference.

Where is everyone measuring the water temperature? I would assume you should measure it where the water leaves the engine, as close to the thermostat as possible (actually, anywhere in the hose leaving the engine going back to the radiator inlet) so as to have an accurate "operating" temperature, correct? That would give the "operating" temp. The temperature sensor for the built-in dash needle is located on the left side near the distributor, where the water nears the thermostat.

My issue, if there really is one, is with the return water heating up to over 200degrees on a day when temps are in the 90's and above. Ive wasted money on a new viscous fan now and still seeing the same temps that the older (and still good) fan produced. The water temp coming out of the radiator are definitely cooler than going in (when its over 200 on the hot side and around 180 on the cool exit side) but I am thinking that radiator input water temps are what we should be looking at. I see that you are measuring the water temperature on heater lines which is on the cooler side of the radiator.
Maybe I'm looking at the correct temps and just don't need to be concerned. I would be interested in what others are seeing as the temperature right after the thermostat.
 
#19 ·
I chose the heater line location for two reasons; 1 because it was a location I could easily install an inline sensor, and 2 because it's the last place the water runs before exiting the motor. In order to make the heater efficient, the water flows there after running thought the block, so that the hottest water gets to the heater core (and therefore produces the most cabin heat). I have mine on the line going into the heater so that I don't get a false read when the heater is on. From there the water runs into the intake manifold and out the top hose. I verified temps against the readout from the actually EFI computer temp sender (accessible through RoverGauge) and they usually read within 1-5 degrees of each other (the warmer the motor, the closer the temps match).
 
#20 ·
I know this is an old thread. I was part of the earlier chain.

Since the expensive AB version was a bad experience for me, I previously went with the nissens part, which is $375 - $500ish these days.

It's not super high quality (as evident by the price), but I hoped it would work for a while.

2.5 years later and it just blew while I was in the middle of nowhere. This must be my 3rd radiator in 5 or 6 years (I had warranty coverage on at least one).

I'm going to pay up and have an aluminum radiator custom made from Griffin or maybe BeCool? I think Be Cool said it would be something like $800 and I would have to send them mine.

Does anyone have any experience with Be Cool?

The amount of money we consider saving on this item is blown through in time and expense when there is an inevitable problem.
 
#22 ·
I know this is an old thread. I was part of the earlier chain.

Since the expensive AB version was a bad experience for me, I previously went with the nissens part, which is $375 - $500ish these days.

It's not super high quality (as evident by the price), but I hoped it would work for a while.

2.5 years later and it just blew while I was in the middle of nowhere. This must be my 3rd radiator in 5 or 6 years (I had warranty coverage on at least one).

I'm going to pay up and have an aluminum radiator custom made from Griffin or maybe BeCool? I think Be Cool said it would be something like $800 and I would have to send them mine.

Does anyone have any experience with Be Cool?

The amount of money we consider saving on this item is blown through in time and expense when there is an inevitable problem.
Funny that you revive one of lances old posts. I built that car years ago and everytime he brought it back he would have done some other modification himself. He was meticulous in everything he did and would research the hell out of everything before doing it. I was always jealous of his cooling system upgrade. the fan controller he ran was top notch. I can never remember the name of it.

Back to the original issue, Radiator quality is totally hit or miss. I would not run a plastic tank radiator in my D1s or Classics. The AB copy is pretty decent. as good as it gets but that does not mean it is perfect. I have used tons of them and i would say i have only had issue with 1 so far that i had to warranty. They never give me a hassle on anything as their customer service is A+ I like to run aluminum radiators although not as strong as the oem they do seem to be better at cooling. I have a company here in town that hand makes them for me but even those i have the occasional issue with as with anything hand made. I have one in annabelle that only leaks a drip when the car sits overnight, will not leak under pressure and even pulled it to water tank it and it didnt show any signs of a leak. put it back in and voila leak still there after it completly cools down. The cheap aluminum ones do hold up ok and do a good job (i might be lucky on that one) Some of pricing on ones like Ron Davis will make you want to just buy them every few years and be ok with it. Griffin is a good company so if its comparable in price to the AB one i would go with that.

Just me .02 from what i have seen. Now i have to find that fan controller Lance used. My friend bought his classic last year.
 
#21 ·
Nissens are really as good as you get nowadays unless you go genuine or custom made. We have had one on our W124 4Matic for ages with no issues.
Bearing in mind you say you have had 3 radiators in 5 years. I would suggest there are other things at play here. For example over pressurising due to a expansion cap issue. The radiator being stressed by being mounted incorrectly. Stiff old hoses, etc etc.
I would seem unlikely that 3 would fail, I could understand if they were all made in China, (as my friend says, "what do you expect from a 9 year old in a shed!"
Maybe just buy a genuine one, for information, our Soft Dash still has the one on it that was put on in the factory.
 
#23 ·
Thanks Special Ed - it sounds like you got it made! (sorry, couldn't resist).

In the end, I bought a low end Nissens again because I was on the road and it would have been expensive for me in rental cars and hotel rooms to sort out my definitive solution.

That said, I saved my old (leaking) one and I plan to send it to Be Cool to have them make one for me. Maybe they can use it as a template and it can be another option for a higher end solution for other buyers.

In any event - I'll report back whenever it is I get around to it.
 
#24 ·
May want to check your oil pressure. I have a brand new Nissens in my sons RRC and the oil pressure at cold start was 10-12lbs NO MORE. Goes up to 25 or so when hot, but 10-12 cold isn't great. If I gave it gas cold the pressure would NOT increase, which is really weird. I removed the oil cooler and my pressure shot up to 40-50 (spaced relief spring) cold and actually goes down a bit when hotter like it should. I have the same Nissens Rad on our D1 and it sits around 30-35 psi cold so the crank driven pump is likely more up to the task than the dizzy one. Maybe I got a bad one, but I'm not the first person this happened too. For me I run a 190 Thermostat and its my boys truck so Im leaving that POS oil cooler off but I will probably never buy a Nissens Radiator again. Its worth noting the lines and sandwich plate for the cooler were not clogged, I checked. Its the oil cooler itself on the Nissens Rad. Garbage, but you would never know it without a real gauge (I tried two btw and both gauges read the same) Gordo
 
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