[HSE]

Hi Gents,
Recently I had a 95' HSE bought to me with no brakes.I removed the brake modulator and started to strip the unit down.What I found was quite scary.An internal component made of plastic had failed, this rendered the car with zero brakes!!!!I have been told by LR and wabco that no parts are available and the units are unserviceable.Rubbish!!!I have a Range Rover diagnostic business with faultmate MV server setup in FNQ AUS, and have engineered stainless steel components to replace the plastic parts. A new modulator is around $6000aus plus fitting and more than likely an ABS pump at $2500aus.I rang a local LR D'ship and was quoted $9500aus to repair the above.
As we all know many older P38's are worth less than $15000aus these days and to be confronted with a $10000aus fix would for most be out of the question.Having said that a car with no brakes is useless.Replacing the modulator with a serviceable used unit is also a very short term fix, as I have found after fixing 5 in the past 3 months that age is the factor of failure and not klms.All cars I have fix have been within 8 months of the same age with very varied klms covered.Each unit had failed exactly the same way.So please if your brake pedal feels strange in any way do something about it, each car I have fixed gave little or no warning.Luckily all have avoided a serious accident.
If you would like to discuss this with me please e-mail at [email protected]. I'm looking at doing cost affective repairs to these units posted to me if not in my area.
Regards Russell.

 

[996TURBO]

Interesting but what to do for non Australian mates?

 

[tech_support]

Hi HSE,

Could you please explain what the symptoms of the impending failure are?

At what age do the modulators fail?

Cheers,
Mick.

 

[Zubi]

What is the part in the modulator that fails?

 

[HSE]

Interesting but what to do for non Australian mates?

Good question.I would suggest that I could supply iinstructions and replacement components. If you are capable you could attempt yourself or take the vehicle to a shop. You will find that most shops if they are mechanical or brake specialists will not want to touch them due to liability.

Could you please explain what the symptoms of the impending failure are?
At what age do the modulators fail?

Ok, symtoms are a stage or click in the pedal as you apply your brakes. Or any warning lights at any time.Basically be wary of any change in the brake process. From the cars I have fixed (5)they have been 95/96 models with drastically different klm's This is why a second hand replacement is a short term fix.

 

[HSE]

What is the part in the modulator that fails?

The component failure is in the hydraulic section of the brake modulator. When this fails you have a complete loss of brakes, only the handbrake to pull up.I will add to that repairing this situation prior to brake failure is recommended as once the failure has happened they is usually additional damage to the unit, in some cases rendering it useless.

 

[wills]

Ok, symtoms are a stage or click in the pedal as you apply your brakes. Or any warning lights at any time.Basically be wary of any change in the brake process. From the cars I have fixed (5)they have been 95/96 models with drastically different klm's This is why a second hand replacement is a short term fix.

Can you provide pictures and guides here then please?? Ive had a sort of 'click' in my brake pedal for a long time now. Its sometimes there and sometimes isnt. When I had a full fluid change at my last service this went away for a while but then returned.

I know im not the only one on here with this 'click' in the pedal so more info and pics would be great to see please.

-Wills

 

[Ka177ran]

Pardon my scepticism, but surely if this problem causes catastrophic failure of the braking system, would Land Rover not be liable to recall the vehicles and correct the problem?

 

[wills]

This is what I was thinking. Thats why I think we need photos and precise details of the bit that is failing.

Im not doubting your work at all Russell but we need more info, especially for people like us all the way over here in the UK where sending the unit to yourself would not be a viable option.

-Wills

 

[HSE]

Pardon my scepticism, but surely if this problem causes catastrophic failure of the braking system, would Land Rover not be liable to recall the vehicles and correct the problem?

I have already spoken to relivant peoples about this issue and was basically told to nick off I don't know what I'm talking about.Funny how each of these companies agreed that they had not stripped a unit down to investigate the failure.It's easier and far more profitable to sell new replacement units.

 

[zem]

I have a 1995 HSE with 260,000km on the clock.
For a few months now I have lived with what I call 'missing breaks'.

I find that in the mornings it takes a while for the pump to boot up so my breaks actually work. If I start her up and back out of the drive immediately I am with little or no breaking.

Once I get moving (well when I need to come to a stop) I find that there is about 2 inches of freeplay in the pedal that does NOT engage the break. I need to take my foot off and press the pedal again to activate my breaks.

When I first press the pedal and it has that freeplay, it sort of 'clicks' and I have to back off fast and press it again. I have managed with this as I basically 'find' my break and pump it before I really need it. OK for everyday driving however emergencies will not suffice.

I was also off road on a VERY step decline yesterday and realised this issue needs to be addressed.

I have spoken to my LR mechanic (just a bloke in Romesy who actually gets cars sent from LR - so he knows his stuff) and he said I will need to replace the (now he name escapes me) ...brake pump??

I am VERY INTERESTED in this fix HSE.
What are the next steps?

Thanks mate.
- Zem (Melbourne)

 

[Barney Roveable]

I have experienced this problem first hand about 3 to 4 years ago. Unfortunately for me it was while on holiday and ended up in some poor blokes front yard and ran over his front tap. Let me tell you it is not a very pleasant experience.

The warning signs were there as leading up to this event the brakes were slower to respond, and less effective. Basically it was operating on the back up (or secondary) brake circuit as described in the RAVE manual. I did actually heed these warnings and took it to the Range Rover mechanic who's solution was to bleed the brakes (which did nothing) and then tell me that I needed new rotors and pads.

Of course I believed them, not knowing what was about to happen. When it did let go it was just as I put my foot on the pedal then I heard a massive release of pressure noise from under the bonnet followed by a firm brake pedal however absolutely no brakes. Once I came to a stop (very luckily without too much damage) I opened the bonnet I inspected the fluid reservoir and noticed that all of the fluid in the system appeared to have returned to the reservoir under massive pressure and it had leaked out everywhere through the closed cap ( alot of pressure to do that).

As you could imagine I felt that this was a pretty dangerous situation as if this failure occurs you have ABSOLUTELY NO BRAKES!!! I of course sent e-mails to Landrover Aust and Landrover itself expalining what had happened and explicitly detailed my concerns that there cars may actually have a major and extremely dangerous fault lurking there waiting to happen only to be told that I needed to take the car to Landrover dealership to have the car repaired.

Disgraceful really as they obviously didn't even want to entertain the fact that there was possibly a problem, but it didn't really suprise me. Of course I have kept that e-mail corrospondence because even though I hadn't heard it actually happening to anyone else I strongly felt there was a serious design flaw and that it would happen again to other people.

I had my modulator replaced as I was told it was a throw away item. I luckily picked up a replacement for basically nothing but that also has a problem as described in the other thread by Rob HAYDEN on "ABS Issues". Anyway take it from me there is potentially a major design flaw with these units that can result in a malfunction that occurs without warning resulting in your car having no brakes whatsoever (apart from handbrake).

Regards Barney

 

[Claude]

Is the component that fails the Shuttle Valve?
Robison Service has a short article about shuttle valve replacement for the Discovery II : http://www.robisonservice.com/articles/RonR_aug2006.asp

 

[HSE]

zem, there is no point in buying a second hand unit as they have the same plastic component that is failing.They are all the same up to mid 99 when BMW made the bosch changes.You will pay around $1800.00 to $2500.00 plus fitting but these units still have the problem.You may buy a year or two.A new unit is $6000.00 plus fitting ect.The fix that I'm doing costs between $450 to $600 depending on the extent of the internal damage.The longer you leave it the higher the probability of internal damage.
Russell.

I have sent this in a pm

 

[HSE]

Hi claude,
No the shuttle valve problem exists in the discovery II Wabco slabs unit which is totally different to the P38 modulator.The P38 problem is more acute it affects the hydraulic part of the modulator which causes a total loss of brakes
Russell.

 

[tonybig666]

Hi HSE how do I tell witch model mine is as mine is a 99 thanks
Tony

 

[HSE]

Hi HSE how do I tell witch model mine is as mine is a 99 thanks
Tony
Ok, does your car have 4 wheel traction control.Should be listed in you manual.
Russell.

 

[kyle h.]

This is interesting. Do you have any pictures of failed components, etc?

How do we go about getting the parts? Or are you only offering your services?

 

[wills]

Ok, does your car have 4 wheel traction control.Should be listed in you manual.
Russell.

What happens if you have NO TC at all??

-Wills

 

[Chas]

Wills,
I suspect the qualifying condition is that if the vehicle is 99 and has four wheel TC then it is fitted with the later Bosch Modulator.
If it's pre-99 then it automatically qualifies as 'possible failure'.
Yours, as '98 and no TC qualifies as 'possible failure'.

This is 'I suspect', I'll look to HSE to confirm one way or the other.

Cheers.