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1995-2002 Range Rover P38A
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Discussion Starter #1
Hi...I was hoping you could help out a newbie ( 2 weeks in)

2001 range rover Bosch North America with Secondary air system for emissions(SAI). date of build say 01-01

1. Codes p1117 secondary air bank a code and temp low code (p0418) combined
2. 12v jump to SAI pump (portable battery) works no noise per say and seems to be ok
3. Have not "grounded" the pump with it in car as I am not sure how to test that way, procedure and (read something about doing it but not sure.
4. Car was hit in front(previous owner) and I AM NOT SURE IF I AM MISSING A SENSOR AT BOTTOM OF RADIATOR(temp sensor) (read that some have them and some dont) I read that this could cause the p1117 code?
5. I am guessing that the 2 codes are related as I read that the ECT sensor(Engine coolant sensor) One on top of motor is part of the system. I also read that it MAY look at a Temp sensor at the bottom of that radiator(I have read some have then and some don't ) and since my car was hit, I am not sure I have one although I don't see any hanging wires.
6) I need the testing procedures other than what I have done with jumping the SAI pump. I also need to know if I am missing a temp sensor at the bottom of radiator or if mine is one that is without it.
7) Do I start by buying a temp sensor(one i can see behind alternator? It looks original and I don't want to go through replacing it when it may be ok.
8) I also looked at the hose connected to the SAI pump and it was clean.
9) I am not sure if the valves are the issue, but read that you an spray wd/40 to lube them if they are sticking?
10) I previously got a MAF code, but cleaned it with MAF cleaner and the code is gone. One of the clips on MAF is broken, so I have "sealed" the paper thing gap with tape. I mention this in case this may have something to so with it all, but I don't think so, but some say the p1117 code IS MAF?



I am trying to get emissions and need to resolve it.
 

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LEGACY VENDOR
1995-2002 Range Rover P38A
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The Land Rover P1117 code is for the ECT sensor. There are a couple of manufacturers that use if for the MAF - but in RAVE, there's a section listing all the 'P' codes, and it comes up as saying it's ECT sensor circuit low.

I would hook it back up to diagnostics and see if you can view live data - and see what the ECT is reporting back to the ECU. If the temperature isn't right, then chances are it's the sensor or a grounding point in the engine bay.

The sensor in front of the radiator on the later models is just (as far as I know) for the HEVAC to determine the ambient air temperature. The Bosch system uses a temp sensor which is part of the MAF to get the intake air temperature.

I think the older GEMS models had a seperate sensor in the air intake/filter box for this. So don't think the missing (if it isn't hidden somewhere) sensor in front of the radiator will have any bearing on the engine operation.

SAI... not sure as UK spec vehicles don't have this fitted - so maybe someone in the US will be able to chime in a bit more on that one! I did look up the code that you emailed me for the SAI - and P0418 shows as: Secondary Air Injection System Relay "A" Circuit Malfunction

RAVE has a section on the SAI system in the "EOBD" Technical Brochure in the Range Rover section. Maybe this will shed some light on how the system is supposed to operate?

Marty
 

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LEGACY VENDOR
1995-2002 Range Rover P38A
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Just had a look through the EOBD section in RAVE on the SAI system.

It has the P0418 fault listed and the "Land Rover" explanation of the code:

'Secondary air injection pump powerstage fault (e.g. - SAI pump relay fault / SAI pump or relay not connected / open circuit / harness damage).'

So it sounds like the pump isn't powering up or working properly. I guess worst case scenario is the pump has failed altogether, but there are a few things to check.

Is the pump actually connected?
The SAI pump is powered via Maxi Fuse 2 (50A) in the engine fuse box. Is this fuse a) there and b) not blown?
The SAI pump power from MF2 is switched via Relay 10 (according to RAVE ETM in the SFI section) in the engine fuse box. Is this relay a) there and b) working (might be able to swap it with another one of the same colour to test)

Hope this gets you started.

Marty
 

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1995-2002 Range Rover P38A
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Discussion Starter #4
Where does the ECT sensor get it's ground? Should I just spend 20 and replace it to fix a ground?

The pump gets it's ground from the ecu too get going and since I can jump it, it is not getting the ground. The issue is that I am not sure if my ect code that saus that the temp is below threshold is shutting the system down and that is why the ground is not being sent. The other issue is that because of previous owner's accident to the front, I am not sure if I am missing a sensor at the bottom of the radiator (can't see any connection) which would also throw the ECT code and thus MAY not allow the ground for the SAI pump as the ECU just shuts the cycle down when it can't get a good temp...?

From what I read:
The pump gets it's ground from the ecu too get going and since I can jump it, it is not getting the ground. The issue is that I am not sure if my ect code that saus that the temp is below threshold is shutting the system down and that is why the ground is not being sent. The other issue is that because of previous owner's accident to the front, I am not sure if I am missing a sensor at the bottom of the radiator (can't see any connection) which would also throw the ECT code and thus MAY not allow the ground for the SAI pump as the ECU just shuts the cycle down when it can't get a good temp...? Ultimately I need to know how the systems work and intertwine and how it cycles etc...

FYI Pump does power up fine w/o noise on a 12v portable battery. Maxifuse is ok. 1 Relay is for Engine power and if that was bad, car wouldn't start or ?, and the other relay I will swap but I still need to know
 

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LEGACY VENDOR
1995-2002 Range Rover P38A
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The engine coolant temp sensor (for the ECU) gets it's ground from the Engine ECU - aswell as it's 5v source, the only other ground for it is in the other temperature element which is used by the BECM to control the dash temp gauge.

This ground has NO effect on the what the engine ECU sees though, as they are 2 seperate circuits inside the one housing.

It can't hurt to change the temp sensor, but I would still try and read the live data from the current sensor before swapping it - at least as a baseline, so if the new sensor shows the same reading, then you know the problem lies elsewhere.

The SAI pump doesn't get it's ground from the engine ECU - it gets it's ground from E0563, which is doesn't have a photo location in RAVE - but I would suggest tracing the wiring from the pump if possible.

The Engine ECU only gives grounding to the RELAY which then in turn drives the SAI pump.
Yes, if the engine relay doesn't work, then the engine won't start - but the SAI pump is driven off it's own relay (RL 10 in the fuse box) If the pump powers up fine on a seperate power source, then the issues is either in the relay, fuse, wiring, fusebox or engine ECU itself.

The sensor on the from of the radiator, as I mentioned in the first reply is used by the HEVAC, and will have NO affect on the engine running. The Bosch Motronic system gets the Intake Air Temperature through a sensor in the MAF.

To get an idea of how the system works then look in RAVE - the section you are after is the 'Technical Document' on EOBD. This has all of the 'P' codes listed, AND has a very in depth writeup on how the SAI system works, what fault codes can be generated and the general cause of these fault codes.

My bet is either the relay or the fuse box if the fuse and the pump are ok.

Marty
 

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OP's probably taking about the 'thermostat monitoring' temp sensor. There was a thread a while back about this, where was it? Did the wiring exist? Did the ECM know about it? etc.. can't remember a conclusion but there may have been one.

I do remember suggesting to see if those pins where populated at the ECM, but don't think that was chased up.
 

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LEGACY VENDOR
1995-2002 Range Rover P38A
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LEGACY VENDOR
1995-2002 Range Rover P38A
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4,216 Posts

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Pretty sure it does, one of the members here got the socal ally rad but it didn't have (at the time) the bung to accept that sensor.

That's not the thread i'm thinking of, perhaps only 12 months ago?? not exactly sure.
 

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LEGACY VENDOR
1995-2002 Range Rover P38A
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Have a look and post it up then..

I'm only going on the information I can find - given the fact that our age vehicles in the UK don't have SAI is from RAVE and the searching I have done. Hence also why I mentioned that hopefully a US owner can chip in with some information more useful to the OP's problem...

Marty
 

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Well i'm not hunting that thread, but don't have to, that guy did have that sensor and you can check out the '99 ETM, first page of A1 Sequen....
 

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LEGACY VENDOR
1995-2002 Range Rover P38A
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You must have a different version of RAVE to me then..

Both versions I have (the embedded acrobat 4 version with Range Rover, Freelander, Disco II etc, and the single PDF documents from the download in the FAQ) don't have any mention of a radiator temp sensor...

Is there a separate NAS ETM i'm missing somewhere?

http://www.rangerovers.net/forum/7-range-rover-mark-ii-p38/35601-2001-radiator-temp-sensor.html

That must be the thread you're referring to.

To the OP:
Maybe it's worth looking all around the radiator and seeing if there is a connector where this sensor is supposed to plug in. If the vehicle has had a front end impact before then chances are the radiator has been changed - and if this mystery sensor is supposed to be there, then maybe the replacement radiator didn't have the place for it to go in - as with the thread linked just above - and that is the cause of your issues?

Maybe a US member with SAI can have a look on their vehicle and let you know where the sensor is supposed to be located, so you can narrow down the search area for the wiring?

EDIT: I have now Re-downloaded RAVE and this version does have the thermostat sensor listed. It does not however have a location view, so the OP will still have to go about hunting for it...
 

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Discussion Starter #13
OK...I guess that it may be hard to answer if I have 2 temp sensors because I think it changed mid 01. I have a 01/01. I did see one plug but it looks like a headlight plug that was spliced into to make a new light connector. I also think the radiator was repaired and not replaced as nipple has a repair(unless he bought a broken replacement)

Is there eny definitive source that can say 01/01 yes or no on 2 temp sensors?

On another note,

I replaced a rotary coupling and had the battery disc. I also replaced some relay's for the hell of it.

The check engine went off but came back on.

!) I hear the air pump ON! this time!!!, but it is a quiet kind of click and I am not sure what is normal. I have read that it is supposed to be like a hair dryer and I am not getting that. IF that is the case I AM HAPPY because I can get that and be done with it! But if it is not I am also happy because I can just CLEAN?(what is the procedure?) the valves or do I have to replace them. The oil was bad so I guess they need cleaning at least.

2) I also need help with my airbag light. I replaced the coupling and now have my controls on the wheel and horn, but the airbag light is still on. I thought that the SRS has a self reset. Is the Airbag fault separate and needs to be reset by testbook? Do I have to replace the airbag?( Remember the car was in an accident (but not sure if bag was deployed. I left the bag 4 bolts just snug, in case I need to deal with it again. All other SRS connectors seem ok and the front crash sensors are there and seem level.

Any more help?

So. I am 1/2 way there thanks to you Marty!
 

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My 2001 North American Spec has the sensor, it is right next to the bottom radiator hose. It does nothing as far as I can tell. I bought an aftermarket thermostat housing that houses no thermostat. I live in southern Texas and having cooked a couple of V8s over the years, I need to remove at least one instant failure point from an otherwise good system. The 'Rave' theory suggests that this sensor solely exists to detect a failed thermostat by testing the difference in temps between in the input and output stages of the cooling system.. It should've thrown a code by now - I have no thermostat remember. Perhaps our 'cold' days are not cold enough down here.. Having said all this though, my SAI runs as it should - I hear it vaguely for a short while on those rare 58 degree days. Perhaps there is some undocumented link between the lower Bosch sensor and the SAI? Undocumented possibly, or more likely - forgotten by myself during engine rebuild research..
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Thanks for your post but I think that they changed it mid year as I read somewhere here and I have an 01/01 as on the door. What is your build date? Can you post some pics of it and the wiring and where it goes as I may have to rewire. PLEASE take a close up of the PLUG as I have a busted plug but I think it is a headlight plug that was rerouted.

Mark
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Marty,

I can't find E0563 the ground in my rave and now that I head the pump "working"(not sure if has enough power) If the ground is weak then that may be causing it to not work at full? I think it was more powerful when I jumped it(12v) but I think that is only because it works on 5v? If I read you correctly? So...If the pump is really not supposed to be loud and doesn't speed like a hairdryer, then mine is fine and I only need to unclog the airways....From what I have read...or pay for new valve and maybe pipes.

Now all I need is some definitive answer regarding the build date of 01/01 and the second sensor.

Almost done.
 

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It is dark here now, but I will gladly take a pic of the plug tomorrow and try to follow the cable up to where it meets the rest of the loom. My car is a 10/00 official build date however I have found labels on some things from as early as late 1999...
Thanks for your post but I think that they changed it mid year as I read somewhere here and I have an 01/01 as on the door. What is your build date? Can you post some pics of it and the wiring and where it goes as I may have to rewire. PLEASE take a close up of the PLUG as I have a busted plug but I think it is a headlight plug that was rerouted.

Mark
 

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20130618_192312_edited.jpg This is a pic of the connector in place. It is a two pin connector with a solid green and green/black wire going to it. I will unplug the thing later if you need a close up of the size/shape etc. I followed the wires up and they disappear behind the RH headlamp / fender liner up into the fusebox area.
 
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