[Man-O-War]

2003 RR HSE with 98k miles.

Truck has been driving weak and shifting with shuddering/hesitating for a while, and threw few Trans Fail Safe errors, so I decided to flush it.

Changed filter, gasket, o-ring, and filled with Valvoline Synthetic ATF VV324 (managed to squeeze about 7qts into it). Truck now shifts like brand new, with absolutely no issues at any speed. Smooth and solid, shifting points are all good, pleasure to drive. Got about 400 miles on it since.

Drove about 50 miles the other day, Transmission Overheating message came up. Drove 50 miles back after it cooled off, no error messages. Been driving for a week now, no error messages. Service Engine Soon came up, it reported some Thermostat issue (P0108 or something). Cleared, has not come back in a week.

Yesterday i got few Trans Fail Safe errors when selecting Reverse (it would clunk into reverse and throw error). Driveability is still perfect in every other aspect. Transmission shifts perfectly fine in every gear. Shortly afterwards Service Engine Soon came up with P0705 transmission range sensor circuit malfunction PRNDL input error. Cleared, has not come back in 2 days.

Any suggestions? Thanks in advance

 

[RRPhil]

Assuming your RR has the petrol engine, the first thing I would suggest is to put the correct fluid in your transmission - Esso LT 71141. You're currently running it with a Dexron III/Mercon fluid ( viewtopic.php?f=2&t=32142 )

Having said that, the error codes you've described seem to be fairly random/inconsistent - not particularly what you'd expect with a hydraulic or mechanical fault. Sounds more like an electrical/electronic issue, possibly?

Phil

 

[Man-O-War]

Phil, thanks for the fast reply. Yes, 4.4L petrol motor. I did read alot about oils and i saw your warning about using only Esso, but I could not source any locally so I went with what others said worked for them. Transmission shifts like brand new, at any speed/rpm, smooth and reliable, no slipping, noises, rattling, hesitation, or any other issues. Shifting before oil change was horrible to say the least. Changing the transmission oil was the single best service I ever did to the truck, and positive effects were immediate. All 4 magnets were covered in shavings, filter was clogged, and original oil was dirty and with barely any viscosity left in it.

With that said, Trans Fail Safe only kicks in sometimes when selecting reverse, not every time.

I have read that TRS (Transission Range Sensor) might need adjusted using special tool? Have you heard of any HSE RR's needing that adjustment?

Thank you

 

[nsxxtreme]

it reported some Thermostat issue (P0108 or something). Cleared, has not come back in a week.

Yesterday i got few Trans Fail Safe errors when selecting Reverse (it would clunk into reverse and throw error). Driveability is still perfect in every other aspect. Transmission shifts perfectly fine in every gear. Shortly afterwards Service Engine Soon came up with P0705 transmission range sensor circuit malfunction PRNDL input error. Cleared, has not come back in 2 days.

Any suggestions? Thanks in advance

I second RRphil comment about using the appropriate oil. When I changed mine I ordered it of the net for $15/liter if I remember correctly all 10 qrts. A local RR mechanic only wanted $200 to do the complete flush and refill. If I had to do it again I would probably just let him do it.

Your comment about the thermostat has me worried have you checked it? The transmission is cooled by the radiator. There is also a thermostat for the transmission that doesn't allow oil to flow through until the engine temp gets warm. You may want to check the two different thermostats. Maybe your overheating your transmission which causes the other fault codes. An overheated transmission is a really quick way to end the life of the tranny really fast.

 

[Man-O-War]

Thanks for your reply.

I have never had Trans Overheating error message until I changed the oil. First time message came up was because oil level was low, and as the message came on I shut off the truck (i was already in my parking spot). Lack of oil was due to my air compressor crapping out before I was able to get all the fluid in there. I had about 5 quarts of fresh fluid in the transmission, plus whatever was left in the TQ. I then used manual pump and added 2 more quarts, overflow from the oil pan felt warm to the touch so i stopped (as per ZF instructions). I think all in all I have about 8 quarts of new fluid in there. Second time error came up after I drove for ~50miles @ 70mph, and then about 5 miles locally off the highway. Message has not come back since.

I have never had any engine temp issues, so that thermostat code threw me off. BMW fluid in there, fresh flush about 5000mi ago. Have not checked individual thermostats yet, since i put few hundred miles on it and same code has not shown up.

 

[nsxxtreme]

I would not depend on the fact the the error message hasn't returned.

For instance a cars oil warning light doesn't usually tell you you are low on oil it tells you your are completely out of oil. Basically your warned just before catostraphic failure.

They may have set the temp of the transmission temperature sensor so high that it only warns just before catostraphic failure. Meaning you could be doing damage to your transmission before you ever reach this temp. Sounds like I would take it to an independent RR mechanic and have it checked out. Ensure that you are getting proper flow from the transmission to the transmission cooler.

 

[nsxxtreme]

Any easy way to get the oil out of the torque convertor is just disconnect the return line from the transmission cooler. Start the car and the truck will pump the oil out. Just make sure you keep filling the transmission as your pumping oil out.

 

[Man-O-War]

Thanks for the info.

Today I started the truck and without even touching the gear lever I get Trans Fail Safe error. Shut it off, and on next start it gave the same error. Service Engine Soon came up as well, but I dont have reader handy (use one at AutoZone). Have not driven it. Seems like sensor/electrical to me, where would you start checking?

 

[Man-O-War]

As for Transmission Overheating, manual says that when oil reaches 140C it throws the code and goes into Limp Mode (disables the higher gears) in order to cool down the oil (error is deleted when temp drops below 130C). In both instances I got the message truck was shut off immediately within 10 seconds from the message coming up.

 

[RRPhil]

If you were having each of these issues individually we could probably speculate on the cause e.g. reverse engagement problem could be Clutch F piston seals (a well known weakness of the 5HP24 - viewtopic.php?f=2&t=31515&start=16 ), overheating problem could be a bunged up radiator (another well known issue with earlier L322s - viewtopic.php?f=2&t=32123), etc., etc.

The fact that you’re experiencing these all together is either a huge coincidence or, I suspect more likely, an ECU or wiring/connector problem (maybe even low battery voltage).

I fear you may have to visit a LR dealer and get the vehicle hooked up to Testbook/T4 to diagnose this further.

Phil

 

[roverboy]

I got the transmission overheat warning twice on mine before I lost reverse all together. I even pulled over as soon as the message came up and let it cool down. These transmissions are not the greatest in the world. Good luck keep us posted.

 

[nsxxtreme]

I got the transmission overheat warning twice on mine before I lost reverse all together. I even pulled over as soon as the message came up and let it cool down. These transmissions are not the greatest in the world. Good luck keep us posted.

Transmission overheating in an automatic is almost instant death to a transmission. They do not last long once overheated. Yours may have been overheating because your clutches were worn out and slipping.

 

[roverboy]

Actually it was a brand new one LR had just put in. They replaced the first one due to an internal failure it was making a humming noise when in overdrive. The second tranny didn't last but 5 months and 3K miles. I was coming down a mountain and got the warning. Didn't get the message again until 2 months later coming back from Charlotte in 105 degree day and got the message as soon as I pulled onto the freeway. Let it cool off which took about 45mins that time and then had no reverse. They replaced it again and I haven't had any issues since in over a year. ray:

 

[Man-O-War]

Thanks for the replies guys.

I have had Trans Fail Safe errors before with original old fluid, and they were random. I also suspect electrical/ECU/voltage issue. I will check battery, and connector by the Transmission Range Sensor (Inhibitor Switch), I remember I moved the connector aside when I dropped the pan for oil change, maybe its pinched in there or too close to heat or something.

I agree that overheating anything makes it grenade sooner, but all the reading I did on RR shows me that there are Fail Safe (Limp Mode) bailout procedures for just about every system. Truck that was built for offroad/towing has to have them anyways. Now maybe they went overboard *just a little* with all the electronic systems and sensors, to the point where vehicle ends up costing alot to maintain

 

[03rangiemark]

"... All 4 magnets were covered in shavings, filter was clogged, and original oil was dirty and with barely any viscosity left in it."
This could be a big clue here to what failed. Like having an engine clogged with sludge that runs fine, but then it gets flushed & immediately developes leaks & rattles. Any time there is lots of particulate matter, metal shavings & clogged filters found, we can only hope for the best! It sounds like the tranny may have been on life support prior to the fluid change.
Sorry to hear of the situation. Have you thought of rebuilding it yourself? I wonder how hard it would be to get a kit for it. Of course any dealership & almost all service shops will only replace it for $$$.
Rebuilding an automatic transmission is quit an undertaking though.
Of course if you're in the military & have access to the auto hobby shop on a base, they would have all the tools & facilities you would need to pull it & do the job. :thumb: But I imagine very few of us (if any) are in the military. I miss those days.
I digress ....

 

[03rangiemark]

A long shot, but is there any chance of the filter not being oriented correctly? Maybe flow is restricted? Or maybe the fluid leaked out over time & miles since the change?
Just a few more (unlikely) possibilities.

 

[Man-O-War]

I do have access to my boat mechanics shop, that has every tool possible, so working on it won't be a problem. Shavings on the magnets were exact same as seen on all 5HP24 transmission fluid change photos posted across Rover/BMW forums. My transmission had same exact error messages before fluid change (except Trans Overheat), but I dont think difference between 130C (Trans Temp OK) and 140C (Trans Temp Overheat Limp Mode) is that big of a deal.

I have had many weird electrical problems with the truck so I will start looking there.

 

[Man-O-War]

A long shot, but is there any chance of the filter not being oriented correctly? Maybe flow is restricted? Or maybe the fluid leaked out over time & miles since the change?
Just a few more (unlikely) possibilities.

Filter only goes on one way, as O-ring position and two filter mounting bolts are offset. No fluid marks on my parking spot floor, no leaks.

 

[RRPhil]

I wonder how hard it would be to get a kit for it

ZF supply an 'Overhaul Kit' (i.e. seal & gasket set, see photo) - part no. 1058 298 022 - for the 5HP24 which costs £130 in the UK (approx. US$210). Clutch kits (friction plates and/or steel plates) and solenoid kits are also available.

Rebuilding an automatic transmission is quite an undertaking though

This guy is my hero : http://www.bimmerboard.com/forums/posts/490896

He rebuilt his 5HP24 on his dining room table! Now that's what I call having an understanding wife!

Phil

 

[roverboy]

Did you make sure that the trans cooler was fushed out as well during the change? I think that is what caused my problem with the new one they put in, they forgot to flush out the cooler. Just a thought.