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Discussion Starter #1
Hi all, I too have been pondering an LSx P38 for sometime...a few years actually, I've done many conversions before, I have an LS1 and 4L60E in a 71 Jag personally, I've fitted a myriad of engine's some aus specific, but quite a few ford 5L, Lexus 1UZ-FE retaining factory ECU's etc, currently makeing a loom for an LS1 into a Nissan Patrol

So my main interest here is nothing to do with the conversion mechanicals itself, I'll be aiming to fit an LSx with 4L60E to the existing Tx case, making an adaptor, spudshaft and all associated linkages etc.....this I need no help on

I"m only interested in useing the Delphi ECU to control engine and trans, not retaining the GEMS unit as I feel this is a crude way.

Few random examples of my level of rover stupidity `) with a little usual BS forum banter :roll:

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/projects-tuto ... a-cab.html

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/members-rides ... ction.html

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/isuzu-landy-e ... egins.html

Anyway, back to the point

I'm trying to find out 2 things which will make this, I believe, easily achievable

1. how does the ECU communicate to the BCM and at what level?

2. Wiring diagrams

Basically, I feel that if the ECU communcates to the BCM via signals, they can all be easily recreated, if it communicates via data, its a lot more difficult, as signals could result in complete removal of the rover ECU and just a few boxes of tricks, to tell the BCM what it wants, the later would reguire retaining the ECU and "piggybacking" it, via fitting the rover sensors to the engine and just not incorporating the outputs

Any help or diagrams would be muchly appreciated :thumb:

I don;t want alternative options, about why not fit a rover motor etc :naughty: :snooty: `) , I'm looking to do this as a complete, drive-in drive-out conversion, for us silly down underers 8~
 

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Discussion Starter #2
• Crankshaft Position (CKP) Sensor
• Ignition Signal (Key on signal)
• Camshaft Position (CMP) Sensor
• Knock Sensor (KS)
• Intake Air Temperature Sensor
• Engine Coolant Temperature (ECT) Sensor
• Engine Fuel Temperature (EFT) Sensor
• Throttle Position Sensor (TPS)
• Mass Air Flow Sensor (MAFS)
• Park/Neutral Position Switch (PNPS)
• Heated Oxygen Sensors (4)
• Fuel Level Sensor
• Heated Front Screen
• Road speed (Range Rover)
• Air Conditioning request
• Battery Voltage
• Cooling fan request
• Security link
• ABS link

Well I can;t see any of this inputs being closed loop, or refrenceing back to the BCM, so that's promising, a few come from the BCM, but can utelise these with the Delphi, as it also like to know A/C, for idle up and the Delphi controls the thermo's itself, all adjustable temps to!

The only hurdle, security link! is this a data link or signal? I mean, when smartlock came out on australian Ford falcons, ot was meant to be an excellent system, but at the end of the day, all it was, was a square wave 5V signal, generated via the BCM when it was happy, and allowing the motor to go broom, easily recreated. Delphi simply has a drop down menu, allowing you to turn VATS of, overcoming its security and I've also read the Rovacom can turn off the security on a P38? anyone know this for sure?

• A/C Compressor Clutch
• Fan Control
• Fuel Injectors
• Idle Air Control
• Purge Valve
• Malfunction Indicator Lamp (MIL)
• Fuel Pump Relay
• Main Relay
• Coil Driver

And these outputs seem pretty standard
 

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Immobilisation Code: Only used on EDC and Motronic engine Management Systems (EMS). When the ignition is turned on, the BECM, providing it is in receipt of a valid mobilization code, from receiving an unlock signal from the correct key fob or having its EKA code entered, and is therefore not in an alarmed or immobilised state, sends a coded signal to the Engine Management System (EMS) ECU and in turn, the EMS ECU then compares against a code it already has stored in it. If the two codes compare OK, the EMS ECU allows the engine to start. This forms the basis of the immobiliser. If the EMS ECU or the BECM is replaced, the two codes will not match and it will not be possible to start the engine. It is therefore necessary to synchronise the codes in both the BECM and the EMS ECU. For EDC, a function can be found in the EDC section which gives the fixed code from the EDC ECU which must be entered here. For GEMS, any number can be used here as the GEMS ECU has a learn function located in the OTHER section which can be used to force it to learn this code. A valid number is between 0 and 65535

AFAIK this function cannot be programmed out using MSV or such like.The actual alarm audio/visual can but not the immobilisation. :think:
 

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For some reason I vaguely remember reading somewhere about a box that can be installed directly near the BeCM to perform this function. Thus completely overriding the immobiliser. Where I read this I can't remember though.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
John W said:
Immobilisation Code: Only used on EDC and Motronic engine Management Systems (EMS). When the ignition is turned on, the BECM, providing it is in receipt of a valid mobilization code, from receiving an unlock signal from the correct key fob or having its EKA code entered, and is therefore not in an alarmed or immobilised state, sends a coded signal to the Engine Management System (EMS) ECU and in turn, the EMS ECU then compares against a code it already has stored in it. If the two codes compare OK, the EMS ECU allows the engine to start. This forms the basis of the immobiliser. If the EMS ECU or the BECM is replaced, the two codes will not match and it will not be possible to start the engine. It is therefore necessary to synchronise the codes in both the BECM and the EMS ECU. For EDC, a function can be found in the EDC section which gives the fixed code from the EDC ECU which must be entered here. For GEMS, any number can be used here as the GEMS ECU has a learn function located in the OTHER section which can be used to force it to learn this code. A valid number is between 0 and 65535

AFAIK this function cannot be programmed out using MSV or such like.The actual alarm audio/visual can but not the immobilisation. :think:
Thanks!

The question is, is it a closed loop>, does the BCM, after deciphering correct entry of course, spit the code/signal out, to the ECU, then the ECU see's the happy code/signal it goes broom, or does the ECU then send somehting back to the BCM to say its happy, if the BCM only outputs the code/signal on;y, then it can still decipher correct entry, and without needing a feedback from the ECU, the Delphi system will be somewhat standalone, allowing all systems to work......this is what I need to know!
 

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Discussion Starter #6
81stubee said:
For some reason I vaguely remember reading somewhere about a box that can be installed directly near the BeCM to perform this function. Thus completely overriding the immobiliser. Where I read this I can't remember though.
Well test the memory, be some beverages in it for handy information `)
 

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Rovercare said:
John W said:
Immobilisation Code: Only used on EDC and Motronic engine Management Systems (EMS). When the ignition is turned on, the BECM, providing it is in receipt of a valid mobilization code, from receiving an unlock signal from the correct key fob or having its EKA code entered, and is therefore not in an alarmed or immobilised state, sends a coded signal to the Engine Management System (EMS) ECU and in turn, the EMS ECU then compares against a code it already has stored in it. If the two codes compare OK, the EMS ECU allows the engine to start. This forms the basis of the immobiliser. If the EMS ECU or the BECM is replaced, the two codes will not match and it will not be possible to start the engine. It is therefore necessary to synchronise the codes in both the BECM and the EMS ECU. For EDC, a function can be found in the EDC section which gives the fixed code from the EDC ECU which must be entered here. For GEMS, any number can be used here as the GEMS ECU has a learn function located in the OTHER section which can be used to force it to learn this code. A valid number is between 0 and 65535

AFAIK this function cannot be programmed out using MSV or such like.The actual alarm audio/visual can but not the immobilisation. :think:
Thanks!

The question is, is it a closed loop>, does the BCM, after deciphering correct entry of course, spit the code/signal out, to the ECU, then the ECU see's the happy code/signal it goes broom, or does the ECU then send somehting back to the BCM to say its happy, if the BCM only outputs the code/signal on;y, then it can still decipher correct entry, and without needing a feedback from the ECU, the Delphi system will be somewhat standalone, allowing all systems to work......this is what I need to know!
Afaik theECU does not send a code/signal back to the BECM, but allows engine start once it receives the correct code from the BECM.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
John W said:
Afaik theECU does not send a code/signal back to the BECM, but allows engine start once it receives the correct code from the BECM.
Cheers, this is what I was thinking, makeing it somewhat east to interface, if its the case :D
 

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the immobilizer can be disabled in the BECM, not sure exactly what that does, but there is a setting, on/off...

I'd like more info on your xfer case adaptor ideas :)
 

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shupack said:
the immobilizer can be disabled in the BECM, not sure exactly what that does, but there is a setting, on/off...

I'd like more info on your xfer case adaptor ideas :)
The BECM immobilizer setting on/off only allows the immobilizer to be self arming or to be activated when locking the vehicle.As far as I understand it does not disable the immobilizer from being activated. :think:
 

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Discussion Starter #13
shupack said:
the immobilizer can be disabled in the BECM, not sure exactly what that does, but there is a setting, on/off...

I'd like more info on your xfer case adaptor ideas :)
Transfer case, will happen when it happens, need the donor and to finish my 120" so around mid year, I'm not stressed about this, it'll be easy enough, pan clearance will be interesting, but that's norm with any GM trans with a rover, just this time its on the other side
 

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Discussion Starter #15
More thoughts are the tranmission ecu, is it a seperate unit and does it talk to the BCM, more importantly, does anyone have a source for wiring diagrams?
 

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Here's where it gets complicated.

Pre 99 GEMS - Has hard wired lines between the Gearbox ECU and the Engine, not sure whether it goes via the BeCM :?
- Torque Limiting Request
- Torque Limiting Grant
- Engine RPM
- Gearbox output Speed (to Becm I think)

Post 99 BOSCH - I would imagine is very hard as it communicates with the Engine via CAN bus.

Best off getting a copy of RAVE to look at. Will have a better look in the morning.

One of my thoughts was to get one of the Gearbox controllers that Ashcroft use and discard the factory one, and then tell the Becm that it's a manual. But then that might complicate things further as that would probably disable the XYZ switch for the H-Gate gear selector :doh: .

This is doing everyone's head in and a spanner hasn't even been turned!!

Stu


Stu
 

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Would it not be possible to use the earlier HP22 gearbox as fitted to the RR Classic? That had no electronics. the gearchange was controlled by the throttle opening.
 

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here is what I said in the other thread.

From looking at the diagrams and the way that the systems work as well as experience with D2's Bosch system, here is my understanding of the way that the security works on a P38 (Bosch):
2 functions.

1 function enables the starter to spin, this runs off of the XYZ switch, neutral safety, t-case switch and other safety switches. this grounds a relay in the BECM giving the starter power. This also relies on the security to free the BECM to let this relay switch.

2 function: the second function sends a signal to the ECM with the code letting the ECM know that it can fuel the engine. From the research, this function is one way and there is no reply back to the BECm from this code. As function 1 must be met for it to turn over in the first place.

As long as the BECM sees function 1, then all systems will work as designed. I was able to bypass this function in my D2 (the BCU looking for all of the safety switches to start) so it is possible as far as I can tell in a RR.

I will keep looking then edit this post or reply back as i find out more.

KyleT


and Ill add that only 2 wires go from the TCM to the ECM, yellow and white wires. can high and can low.

ill try to get a screenshot of the rave page, or just go into the d2 rave automatic gearbox - description/operation. same TCM function as a D2. it outlines what the modules are looking for. ashcroft makes an TCM that can be tuned.


several go to the BECM to control the display, ect...

that said, I think that you could use the Bosch system to run any v8 as long as you get cam position sensor and crank sensor inputs to match. figure out uprated injectors (FORD ONES?) and maybe a megasquirt piggyback to fuel it properly if that doesn't work.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
nipper said:
Would it not be possible to use the earlier HP22 gearbox as fitted to the RR Classic? That had no electronics. the gearchange was controlled by the throttle opening.
1. the 22 will never hold upto the HP

2. I'll be useing the 4L60E that comes with the Lsx

3. the issue is far from getting control of the Tranmission, its getting control of the car! `)
 
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