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Discussion Starter #1
The time has come when I am considering converting to LPG.I have done online searching for companies to do this and read many posts here as well.
I would like to hear updated info from owners with LPG experience and especially form UK based ones as to the most recommended installer.I am in Hampshire so Installers in the the South are preferable.Interesting to note prices vary from £1300 to £2700.(multipoint sequential and installation can take from 1 to 5 days depending on installer) :think:
My MOT is due in FEB and once that is negotiated without too much expense,I will be ready to proceed,I hope. :pray:
 

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Is it worth it?
The value of the vehicle can't be that much now, and it will take quite a few miles
to be able to recoup the cost of the installation. If selling the car, you'll never get
the 'investment' back.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
q-rover said:
Is it worth it?
The value of the vehicle can't be that much now, and it will take quite a few miles
to be able to recoup the cost of the installation. If selling the car, you'll never get
the 'investment' back.
I doubt very much that is worth from a commercial point of view and I dont consider anything to do with the RR as an investment.I dont intend to sell at so it becomes a personal choice with prehaps some long term financial benefit.
 

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John,

I looked into this for a long time before I did it myself. The views I have are:

Only fit a multi-point sequential system to the 1999- Thor engined cars - which will be upwards of £2200 for someone to do it properly. Prinz systems seems to be the best quality, but there are other systems that are almost as good including BRC and others. Installation is key as this can affect all sorts of things including mpg. For example, some installers say a key issue is how close the injectors are to the head will affect performance.

You can fit a non-multi-point system to the 1995-1999 Gems engined cars, but beware of backfire problems from poor installations. RPi say only fit the older non-multi-point systems if you re-chip the engine management system (for about £800) to avoid the backfiring, but these systems are about £800 cheaper than the multi-point ones. Don't expect quite as good mpg from these types of system.

Expect anything from a 10% to 20% reduction in mpg on LPG. Always fit good quality plug leads (some people swear by Magnecore).

LPG prices can vary hugely - presumably due to some people trying to recoup the installation costs. Expect to pay from 50p/litre at specialists to 68p/litre at some motorway sites (therefore shop around more than for petrol) - you can get a great little road atlas showing where all the LPG sites are and then use petrolprices.com to work out which ones are the cheapest. LPG prices also seem to go up in winter and down again in the spring/summer. Beware of any changes to the government policy on duty, as a 2ppl rise on duty also applies to LPG as Unleaded etc. This can put the LPG up by a greater percentage than petrol/diesel.

A 90l donut tank will only fill up to about 78l, so doing roughly 14.5mpg the range is only about 240 miles. Some reckon you can adjust the tank valve slightly to get a bit more in, but I wouldn't recommend it. Just accept that you're limited to 78l. The tank takes up the spare wheel well, so get a good can of the tyre weld puncture repair, and hope you don't get a puncture!

Factor into the cost that you still need some petrol to start in the morning - I use about £1 every 100 miles. Also factor in the servicing costs (£45/year), which usually is a check of the programme and a filter change (filters would last 30k so are not needed annually). Some people change their plug change routine, but I've stuck to the Platinum plugs and changed them every 36k without problem.

Pay-pack for mine was 16,500 miles based on current unleaded vs. LPG costs. I've done 70k mostly motorway miles on LPG with no LPG related problems and reckoned to have saved £6,400 on top of the cost of conversion.

I'd definately do it again!!! But do the conversion right - don't try to get it on the cheap as it will cause more problems in the long run. Get recommendations for installers that have experience on installations for your Gems engine, talk to several of them and only work with the ones who are open about the problems and who you feel comfortable with.
 

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I've used AMS Autogas in Arlesford following recommendations. They seem to know their Rangeys quite well.

My system was already fitted when I bought my Rangey, but it was running terribly. Took them a while, but they managed to sort it out - needed new injector blocks and a proper setting up.

http://www.amsautogas.com/

Guy
 

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q-rover said:
Is it worth it?
The value of the vehicle can't be that much now, and it will take quite a few miles
to be able to recoup the cost of the installation.
Given the price of petrol, the payback is probably a lot shorter than you imagine. Obviously I don't know what mileage you do, but if you think that a saving of £40 a week on fuel equates to £2k a year, the numbers stack up pretty quickly.
 

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I can recommend JE Engineering, they fitted mine. Did a good job. I don't think it took them 5 days (got a courtesy car anyway) and it only cost me £1200. however some of the stuff was already fitted like the tank due to a previous system being fitted.

With the mileage I do it was costing me about £100 a week in petrol give or take a bit, on gas it costs about £40 a week so I would say I'm well out of the red in terms of the cost of fitting the LPG as it was about a year ago now. I have a donut tank in the wheel well, I usually carry my spare in the boot its big and heavy so its quite handy as I put items inside it so they don't slide around the boot.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Thanks Gents for your replies.Will definitely only install a mulitpoint sequential system when I do it.AS for DIY,I dont think I am up for that<what with having to work outside(RR wont fit through garage entrance),I dont think it is practical for me.

The odd think I have come up against is not what I expected,is that there no local suppliers of LPG.Nearest seems to be 10 miles away and none on the usual routes I travel.So it looks as if it might cost more in mileage just to fill up with LPG each time. :roll:
 

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In your case, i'd advise you to look well at the RPI Engineering LPG tank setups.
No bootspace loss and great range.
I prefer not comment their choice of ring mixer install versus multipoint sequential
 

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Discussion Starter #12
996TURBO said:
In your case, i'd advise you to look well at the RPI Engineering LPG tank setups.
No bootspace loss and great range.
I prefer not comment their choice of ring mixer install versus multipoint sequential

Ok I will bite,as I am just learning about LPG,please do comment and explain the difference and dis/advantages of either.
 

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Did my conversion in the street...
Seriously wouldnt even consider a non sequential system, there is a world of difference from these and the mixer ring type. Go for a sequentail with with a connection to the OBD socket. These follow the petrol ECU exactly and allow for the fuel trims on the petrol ECU.
 

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A couple of other factors which might influence the decision in our part of the world is the increased range when travelling long distances and the (non) availability of high RON fuel in the outback. Also I hear anecdotally that they run much better so that alone is reason for doing it (cost aside).

Like John W I would like to undertstand the difference in the systems better. I have a GEMS 98 but I have had a high spec engine rebuild so I don't want any cowboy drilling into my lovely new engine if there is a better (or just as good) way of doing it.

Regards

Andy

(Melbourne)
 

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John W said:
Thanks Gents for your replies.Will definitely only install a mulitpoint sequential system when I do it.AS for DIY,I dont think I am up for that<what with having to work outside(RR wont fit through garage entrance),I dont think it is practical for me.
I have had experience of 3 different types of conversions on our RR's.

The first one we bought had a single point system installed. The next one had a non sequential multi point injection system and the 3rd system was a full multi point sequential system. This I fitted myself to replace the non-sequential system. I also did this outside on my driveway in a weekend, although I do admit this was only the front end as I could utilise the tank from the previous installation. If you do it yourself it's helpful to get one with a wiring loom that has Bosch connectors on the loom to the injectors - saves the hassle of cutting into the injector wiring harness and means you can easily disconnect and isolate the lpg system if required in the future.

I would definitely only go for a full multipoint sequential kit as there was a considerable difference in the power and smoothness between the 3 types.
I have also had a Saab turbo converted and currently have a Mercedes SL320 on lpg, again both with full sequential kits. The merc having the latest type that has been approved to Euro V emmissions.

Probably more important than the individual kit is the quality of installation and calibration.
In terms of kits Prinz is usually quoted as the best, but if you plan any DIY on the lpg system in the future you will find getting parts hard as they will only allow their authorised installers to fit them. Also if you want to spend time fine tuning the calibration they won't sell you a lead or allow access to their software (although you see aftermarket stuff on ebay). The biggest quality item on the Prinz is the Khein injectors, although if they ever go faulty you will need to pay an installer to replace them, and as they are on a rail you will have to replace the rail and not individual injectors.
The other kits mainly fall into 2 camps - Italian made, usually based around AEB electroncis and Polish kits.Tanks are almost exclusively Polish in origin. All these use a vapouriser and inject lpg gas, there is also a system made by Vaille that injects liquid lpg in the same way liquid petrol is injected - if I'm correct Ford use this as a factory fit.
You can buy kits from a few places including

http://www.tinleytech.co.uk/acatalog/Ra ... r_P38.html (very helpful to speak to)
http://www.autogasworldwide.co.uk/index.php - importers of Romano - you can enrol on a course to learn how to fit lpg taking your own car to convert
http://www.blazegas.com/
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Hello AMck,
Thank you for information.The company you mentioned offering the training and installation under supervision of your own system,certainly has my interest and will follow up with them.
Which system do you have on your RR.I too have heard that Prinz and BSR are good systems to have.As I like to do a bit of DIY,I dont think Prinz would be suitable with their philosophy
John
 

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I have the Romano Ris-N system - bought from Autogas Worldwide. They gave me some advice when I bought it and once installed they checked over the installation and calibration. We haven't had any problems with it since I installed it. The only slight issue is that to get full access to all the available settings you also have to buy a dongle to unlock the software. You can still do basic calibration without it though. The injectors are single so if any future problems they can be replaced individually and IIRC they can be stripped to overhaul/clean.

On my Merc I have an AC Stag 300 plus which I had fitted as at the time I just had a lack of time and as it was fitted it came with a 2 year unlimited mileage parts and labour warranty and a third year parts only warranty - so for me that will cover me for next 60 - 90k mile and it was only about £150 more than buying a Romano kit. The software for this system seems more advanced in terms of fuel mapping and calibration than the AEB stuff (which includes Romano) and is readily available to download from the manufacturers website and isn't locked.

One difference you will find with installers is whether they remove the manifold to drill it or drill in place - obviously quicker and cheaper to drill in place apparently this is common practice in Poland and there about 3 out 4 cars run lpg. I certainly would take manifold off if doing myself, but when the Merc was done I know they left the manifold on (evident by some swarf on top of manifold). AC have recently introduced a newer version that interfaces via the OBD port and uses the petrol short and long term trims to self adapt the fuelling map. I know of one other system that does this -eGas, but again I am sure it is a bit like Prinz - you won't be able to access anything yourself afterwards only through their official dealers.
 

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Most of the locally converted p38s around here have the Romano RIS system,seems to work well - once its set up properly,often its not.That Autogas mob seem very unwilling to sell individual parts,esp injectors.They will tell you that they never go wrong and that you have misdiagnosed a running fault.Not a good company for back up in my opinion,but its just how I have found them.Then again I never fit LPG,only repair it,maybe they would be more helpful if I bougth kits off them.
Be careful with the kits that run out of the OBD port,they can keep the BECM awake and cause flat batteries,but a simple relay mod will cure it.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Thanks for the informative info Gents.
Allyv8 ,in your experience with the Romano systems.are they reasonable quality and reliable.I see that you repair them,are there common weak points you see?
 

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In terms of reliability the most common problem with any system seems to be the injectors often due to build up of residue.- they changed from the Romano Ris to the Ris-N. So just to be aware that injector faults on the Ris would not necessarily indicate reliability problems with the Ris-N injectors. The electronics (ECU) is made by AEB as are most of the italian systems like Landi, Tartarini, Zavoli etc
The other area were you can get problems is the vaporizer and this is usually problems with the diaphragm inside from age and wear, again something that is usually repairable as long as you can get the parts.
 
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