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1995-2002 Range Rover P38A
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Discussion Starter #1
It's not enough to simply say "It's on the Rave CD"

I have seen over the past months a regular response to individuals asking questions , "It's on the Rave CD". That may be true, and it may not be true. Moreover, if you cant find it, it is the same as not being there. Since Rave is the primary reference for Range Rovers, I would think that "Rave" would be in the name of the first sticky shown, as opposed to being found in the Q & As.

I have spent hours looking in Rave for a how-to. For example, I wanted to know how to remove a windsheild. I searched for "windsheild" and could not find it. Going page by page, I learned that in Rave, it is a "windscreen". So here, I would suggest that if you are referring someone to Rave, give them the word to search for if there is any question. Taking this further, what section should be searched? The Overhaul manual, Worshop manual, up to MY (model year) 99, MY 99 on, etc. Even if you know the correct term, a search (the binoculars) only covers the manual that you have open.

In the Overhaul manual, they comingle the GEMS, Boxch, and Diesel engines. There you have to take care that you have not moved to a page that covers a diesel if you are looking for a gas reference. Even if you have found a reference in Rave before, there is no guarantee that you will find that same page again without spending time renewing your search. Taking the tutorial, which I did, does not necessarily help.

You play the cards you're dealt. I would not expect a rewrite of any of these references. So the only option is to understand the pitfalls of it and really help others and to not simply say, "It's in Rave". No one could argue with that statement, it may or may not be there.
 
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Re: It's not enough to simply say "It's on the Rave CD"

I would certainly agree with most of that, WARover ! The key word is 'comingle'.... Even in the old days of paper RAVE (eg. '95) LR tried to generate a cover-all and so for newer models (other than mainly engine info) they just spliced bits (and variants) in here and there.... Thus quite a convoluted mess in parts .... and not particularly easy to follow - even for a trained LR technician - either... & including the acronym choice ...

Rover After-sales Viewing Environment.... ? Really ?

These paper versions were later just converted to .pdf files etc of course - almost in its entirety and with little additional search facilities (other than an index)... thank God for RR.net/Forum & members for adding clarity !!

Perhaps all the replies from the site you mention just need some further qualification.. ie. " It's (probably) in Rave... (somewhere)... but possibly not specific/detailed/clear enough for your own vehicle/model " ?!

Now, did I ever mention on here that I am not a big fan of RAVE because I have seen the (much better organised) Service Manuals for other makes ?... I did ?? Oh well......
 

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Administrator
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Re: It's not enough to simply say "It's on the Rave CD"

RAVE is simply a tool much like any other tool in your garage/shop. Part of having a tool at your disposal is learning how to use it. Part of owning a British car is learning British terminology. If someone told me to use ad adjustable spanner to properly install a solinoid in the boot I would learn what an adjustable spanner is, what a solinoid is and what the boot is. I certainly wouldn't expect anyone to spoon feed me basic level information. Although I certainly agree that RAVE terminology can be confusing in terminology and navigation when first opened it only takes a bit of familiarity to learn how to navigate it. One thing to remember is that quoting a page number is entirely useless as there are more than a few different versions of RAVE in use. If I have RAVE handy and have the time I quote the repair number/chapter & section. Page numbers just lead to even more confusion.
 

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LEGACY VENDOR
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Re: It's not enough to simply say "It's on the Rave CD"

Never forget that the Rave shows a RHD P38. That data helps a lot.
 

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Administrator
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Re: It's not enough to simply say "It's on the Rave CD"

Never forget that the Rave shows a RHD P38. That data helps a lot.
Depends on the version of RAVE you have. Older RAVE versions are RHD/ROW based. Some versions are NAS labeled and mixed. Last edition NAS and mixed RAVE have NAS directive and mostly NAS pictures but still retain RHD technical drawings in some cases. Of course there is also the issue of the entire accessory cataloque being left out of final NAS and nulti versions but that is a different story.

THis is why referencing page numbers can be so difficult and misleading.
 

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Re: It's not enough to simply say "It's on the Rave CD"

Rover After-sales Viewing Environment - mmm, almost sounds like a Douglas Adam's reference.
Ditto with the various versions of RAVE, they are confusing. I've spent hours pouring over the 93-95 differences (especially is relay locations) - and I still get confused.
 
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Re: It's not enough to simply say "It's on the Rave CD"

Yes, interesting - I wonder if Adams ever worked for LR in their 'creative' department ? ... Anyway this has now prompted me to re-read RAVE with a view to finding his wit/humour within....

-Apparently their first choice - 'Car Reference And Procedures' manual - was later rejected.... and for not being confusing enough (probably)....

Again, how could LR charge for all those (extra) hours of servicing if such data is suitably clear so that 'just anyone' understands RAVE ??!
 

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JACK'S GRANDAD
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Re: It's not enough to simply say "It's on the Rave CD"

If RAVE is too confusing, I dont even have it now Axel wanted it for a snack, there are lots of other options.
I have a FSM and Alldata.
So maybe the term should be, it's on Alldata or it's in the FSM?
Maybe a move to GD is in order, as my FSM does not list this as a technical topic:mrgreen:

Martin
 

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Banned
1995-2002 Range Rover P38A
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135 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
Re: It's not enough to simply say "It's on the Rave CD"

If RAVE is too confusing, I dont even have it now Axel wanted it for a snack, there are lots of other options.
I have a FSM and Alldata.
So maybe the term should be, it's on Alldata or it's in the FSM?
Maybe a move to GD is in order, as my FSM does not list this as a technical topic:mrgreen:

Martin
Please clarify your remarks. What is FSM, Alldata, GD? Sorry, I don't speak acronyms.
 

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JACK'S GRANDAD
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Re: It's not enough to simply say "It's on the Rave CD"

FSM = Factory Service Manual.
Alldata = www.alldatadiy.com
GD = general discussion, as this is hardly technical.

Martin
 

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Administrator
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Re: It's not enough to simply say "It's on the Rave CD"

LMAO!! Yes Martin a few folks have already suggest the move to general chatter as this has nothing to do with P38s. General chatter is afterall the closest thing we have to Rants and... Raves. :lol:
 

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Banned
1995-2002 Range Rover P38A
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135 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
Re: It's not enough to simply say "It's on the Rave CD"

I am not trying to start a debate about whether or not a $65,000 vehicle should have a clear and concise of set of manuals. But rather, I wanted to start a conversation that would result in improved and accurate responses that are provided to members of this forum. The need for such a conversation is apparent by the comments so far. The Site Administrator talked about the fact that there are multiple versions of the RAVE CD having different content. I do question that the "Technical Forum" should not have a discussion of the "Technical references" that most agree should be consulted.

Having said that, I do not suggest that a specific page should be offered. I would suggest that when there are potential language differences, the correct search term be provided. There is a wealth of information in RAVE if you can find it. For example, recently I was searching for information on the MAF in response to a P0102 code on my vehicle. First I found the MAF for GEMS which has a different code number. That is for the North American cars. The UK GEMS cars do not share that code. Moreover, there is no default info sent to the ECU. The Bosch MAF acts differently and the ECU has default info to use in the absence of info from the MAF. This info for both the GEMS and Bosch is found under "New Range Rover". Without this information, one would assume that the MAF for both systems perform the same functions and they do not. So a person giving advice to a Bosch owner on MAF using his/her experience on a GEMS engine would be giving bad advice. In my mind, this is just one example that I have first hand knowledge of that highlights the need to have a reference. It also says that consulting RAVE is a habit that we should all adopt.

We should all have the same objective, getting the best information that we can get from/or share with our fellow members. Hopefully this thread will be an aid in meeting that objective.
 

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Re: It's not enough to simply say "It's on the Rave CD"

I do question that the "Technical Forum" should not have a discussion of the "Technical references" that most agree should be consulted.
You have missed the point and read something into what was said that simply is not there. I stated that "...this has nothing to do with P38s." Items in this forum are P38 specific, or at least should be. Items in the L322 forum devoted to the L322... etc. RAVE is not model specific to the P38, or any other model, as RAVE covers all Range Rovers from 1993 - 2005.

As far as your reference to "New Range Rover" it is another excellent example of learning the marques terminology. All people within the Land Rover clubs, shops and marketing accept there are currently three models of Range Rover. Their common names are "Classic", "Range Rover" and "New Range Rover". These names are not only misleading but extremely inaccurate in many cases. However that is how they are referred to and how manuals and many sites refer to them. In this example this site has chosen to follow the design nomenclature (L322, P38...) where possible as well as the more publicly accepted names of Classic, Mark II, Mark III etc.

Think of it as just another part of the learning curve much like any other make. Until I owned Packards I didn't know there was a difference between a Senior class model and Junior Class or terms like "picking up an original doughnut pusher" or suffering from a "pitted pelican".
 

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JACK'S GRANDAD
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Re: It's not enough to simply say "It's on the Rave CD"

Sheesh......Gonna take a while I guess huh?

beating_a_dead_horse1.gif
 

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Re: It's not enough to simply say "It's on the Rave CD"

Now, you piqued my interest. What's a pitted pelican? Packards use pelicans?
 
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Re: It's not enough to simply say "It's on the Rave CD"

[- Now I am getting confused, you US guys call the 'stone' in a fruit a 'pit', so are we talking now about stoned pelicans, because that sounds rather dangerous....?!]


WARover, I don’t think that anyone doubts your sincerity in suggesting that RAVE references here could (probably) be clearer at times, but there may be doubts about how to actually implement this suggestion in practice…. and particularly as many of us realise that 'unfortunately' RAVE is replete with anomalies such as the MAF one you highlight above...

The idea that someone could be unimaginative enough to officially describe their latest model as the ‘New Range Rover’ and yet not realise that may be confusing later also illustrates how all the confusion arises in the first case..!


Again (dead horses permitting…!) how do we address these kind of problems, since RAVE is now 'fixed' (in time and in format..) ?

Well perhaps this approach/suggestion will help (but we will see…):-

Starting with your own MAF anomaly above, create a ‘P38 RAVE Anomalies’ thread…. add your findings and hope that others follow suit !? If many do then elect to make it into a ‘sticky’ ?
 

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JACK'S GRANDAD
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Re: It's not enough to simply say "It's on the Rave CD"

Alldata is a piece of cake to search, and my FSM also lists everything pretty easily.
Depends if you want it all for free, or are willing to pay a few $$$ for an easier way IMHO.
RAVE is much like advise on most bulletin boards, it's worth what you pay for it. If you dont think that it's good value for money, step up and spend money on something that is easier.

Martin
 

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Administrator
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Re: It's not enough to simply say "It's on the Rave CD"

Now, you piqued my interest. What's a pitted pelican? Packards use pelicans?
LMAO! Many models and years of Packards have some style of cormorant bird as a hood piece. If the car has not been properly cared for and the chrome fails you end up with a "pitted pelican". Older packards have the Spirit of Speed/Winged Speed hoodpiece. Most people just call it the doughnut pusher.

Another marque slang would be the Spirit of Ecstacy hoodpiece for Rolls Royce. When a Rolls hoodpiece finish is failing people joke that your "nighty is looking tattered" because the marque slang is that the hood piece is actually Eleanor Thornton in her nighty due to the affair she had with Charles Sykes.
 
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Re: It's not enough to simply say "It's on the Rave CD"

Yes, that Thornton/Sykes story is correct. Unfortunately when I see a 'Spirit Of Ecstacy' I don't think of a nighty, though... just the inflatable waistcoat that saved (only) Sykes when the ship they were both on sank in the Med..
 

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Re: It's not enough to simply say "It's on the Rave CD"

I thought she was with Montague when they were torpedoed...
 
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