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Is it really that bad, rod knock in a 1995 4.2 LWB?

7K views 64 replies 6 participants last post by  LanceL 
#1 ·
After reading many forum posts wrt rebuilds and breakdowns, my favorite so far was from RoverMasterTech's writeup as follows: Main/Crank Bearing replacement write up - Land Rover Forums - Land Rover Enthusiast Forum
I believe that for me and my car, his insight and approach captures how I would like to approach my problem as follows. If anybody can please recommend and make pertinent suggestions Im all ears. Myself and the car are conditionally ready and willing to face the challenges that may come.

1995 RRC LWB:
~266,000 miles
Routine maintenance only after all this time...

Car is/was running "strong", no smoke, good gas mileage and handles fine, other than the tap, tap, tap and now the knock…

My local and knowledgeable LandRover "expert” mechanic team said I have rod knock in the bottom end. I hadn't really noticed because of the top end tap. Once he called it to my attention I do hear it.. (he said the exhaust manifold was leaking but I don't really notice it and that may be masking the knock somewhat.) They said catastrophe was eminent and the lead tech would NOT drive it further…that was after he put in the new Power steering pump and damper and test drove it for a spin.

He also said that the FRONT COVER was obsolete and that IF the oil pump had damaged the housing ( he was pretty sure it would be trashed) , then fixing anything was not an option, because even a block swap needed the old cover and those were impossible to find.

SO, I intend to pull the cover and inspect the PUMP and housing and keep a tight hold of the cover until I know it is not re-usable. ( Anyone hear of remanufacturing those? Why hasn't the part been resurrected ?)
IF cover is GOOD, then I will need gears to replace the pump , the timing chain kit, pickup tube o-ring, gaskets, etc … water pump is new but "TWO LONG bolts on driver side lower" threads stripped as I was torquing them in the cover for sure.
Also, before doing the pump/timing chain job, iff COVER is good I will inspect lower bearings and replace ( mains and pushrod) if the Crankshaft/Journals are not out of spec.
If crank appears trashed or bearings walked, then Ill pull the engine and have it rebuilt somewhere near Austin, TX or send it away or locate a rebuilt… ANY SUGGESTIONS on other local experts, options?

I Will need plastigage to inspect the crankshaft? (will that work on old beings or Do you need new to check??)

How does that sound?
Thanks in advance for your help.

Other plan is put it back together, and sell it as is to someone who wants the challenge. Minimal rust and never wrecked. Typical issues but nothing major.

P.S. If someone had said at 160K miles to rebuild the pump I would have for sure, but I never considered it and Bill never suggested it. I was happy to have an incredibly reliable automobile that never left me stranded and always started. I truly wonder about the horror stories I read on this site wrt money pit rovers. Mine never was and 266K miles later I know Ive spend more on gas than what I paid for it easily.
 
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#2 ·
Do you now why they seem to believe the oil pump housing in the front cover is trashed? I find that unlikely, and while they are very difficult to find, unless it sustained some form of unusual damage you can probably just replace the oil pump gears, that's what I did. To be honest 266k out of a rover motor without a rebuild is pretty damned impressive. A fresh bottom end and good care should give you another 250k!
 
#3 ·
The shop said they had experience with looking at similar age '95 LWBs and that was what to expect, 50/50 chance. I've not read any post that said the gears had torn up the cover but I would be interested to hear more. I know of one other shop that did my viscous couple exchange 7 years ago and I may speak with them too. Thanks for the comment.
 
#5 ·
Other than the current question of fixing the 4.2 to get more life, does anyone know of write-ups on the forum on how that would go, putting a p38 engine into a '95 RRC? Which specific year(s) would one consider as the best option to attempt? That option is getting off target of my current problem but sounds like a decent approach if its cost effective...and I can do.
 
#6 ·
Maybe at this stage the most cost effective solution might be source a different car and either drive that or transplant the engine over yourself, assuming you current car is really nice and worth it and you have the facility and experience to do it yourself (not terribly difficult). The P38 engine being the largest bore of the rover V8 Buick engine is probably more likely to have a liner issue than say a 3.8 or 4.2 extracted from a working vehicle. If you get it wrong it can be a real money pit.
 
#7 · (Edited)
Unless you find a 94-95 D1 a parts car isn’t worth it. A bucket of rust disguised as a RRC is worth 5 grand unless you’re waiting months and months for somebody who doesn’t know what they have.

Early GEMS 4.6 P38s have the best blocks of any big bore Rover V8. 3.9, 4.0, 4.2 and 4.6 all have the same bore. Use motors made from 1995-1998, they’ll have a manifold that looks like yours. Later engines have a manifold that looks like a pasta bowl.

You need a $30 crank spacer and a new cam suitable for distributor engines you can find at the wedge shop. Otherwise dress it up like your old engine and you’re good to go.
 
#8 ·
Do you need these tools? The front cover timing chain job has special tools Listed at step 7.
LocatetoolLRT-12-090ontimingcoverandoil pump drive gear.
8. Positiontimingcovertocylinderblockandat the same time, rotate tool LRT-12-090 until drive gear keyway is aligned with Woodruff key.

and for the seal,

13. FittimingcoveroilsealusingtoolLRT-12-089.
14. Fitcrankshaftpulley,fitboltandspacer
washer; tighten bolt to correct torque.
 
#9 · (Edited)
Ive never taken apart a RRC engine but have a 1976 Ford F250 extended cab big bore, all the way to the rebuild shop.

I saw this interesting way to remove the crankshaft pulley bolt... Crankshaft Pulley Bolt removal, post #4, by getlost4x4: "
24 mm socket on a breaker bar on the driverside frame rail. unhook the fuel pump relay. pop the starter. bamn, done and done. very easy to do."

That does sound easy... anybody else do it that way?
I noticed the radiator is in the way to remove it with a battery powered impact hammer...and a 2x4 against the crankshaft counterweight moves the entire car when braced on the garage's floor..

Fast forward. The tear down has been very easy, but messy. Every
time I remove a pipe or tube coolant or oil oozes out.. nice.

I got the crankshaft bolt off very easily with a small wood wedge in the bearing berth on cylinder 8 crankshaft counter balance. I'd never use the start to remove the crankshaft bolt like that...scary.

I had driven the RRC up on metal ramps... then I learned that the extra height was great to scoot around under the engine, but the wheels and axles are still in the same location relative to the engine as when it was on the ground. My dad came over and we used a small piston jack to raise the frame (under the radiator on the metal cross frame member) to make enough clearance to pull out the oil sump...just a little made all the difference. Very easy.
 
#10 ·
Removed the timing chain cover from my RRC grease trap. The chain has a lot of deflection after 260K+ miles, no doubt. My concern all along has been the oil pump and its place in the cover. Upon inspection I dont see a thing wrong... any concerns you guys see? I've seem several post which show cracked gears. I think the gear look fine. Why replace them is what I wonder, since I know they've held up all this time, and new ones may just break. I can use the tolerances specified in the overhaul manual.
Auto part Engine Automotive engine part
 

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#11 ·
The oil pump gears look fine to me. If you intend to re-build/freshen up this motor, I highly recommend replacing the timing chain and gears since you're there, chain slack means poor timing, and the original nylon gears will not last forever. I'd recommend a good cloyes double roller timing set (not that expensive). It wont ever stretch, and the all-steel gears wont crack or start to slip on their hub like the factory nylon ones can. Mine had a lot of slack too, and the new set went on pretty easily.
 
#12 ·
Great to hear that. Ill look into the Cloyes double roller timing set.

What do you think about my UFO? I posted a picture of something I found in the sump in another thread.

I intend on inspecting the bearing.. but wonder how far to go... plastigage, etc...

My inclination from MasterRoverTech is to replace bearings (both main and pushrod) as that is the demise of oil pressure.
 
#19 ·
I haven't the inclination to pull the engine and will pull the heads and take them somewhere to be reconditioned.

Did you also replace the cam bearings and is that even possible/manageable with the engine in the vehicle?

There was a broken off part in the oil intake ( I think it was the tip end of a valve) so the heads obviously need some tlc.
 
#20 ·
In the beginning of the thread I said that my inspiration for the bearing replacement was MasterRoverTech's job. IN his post it looks like he pulled all the mains first and then the pushrods, but I dont see that the mains were off at the same time as the rod bearings.
My timing chain is stretch and is getting replaced.
Is there a particular order of events to adhere to wrt the bearings? I was thinking that the mains should go first and be refitted, then work on the pushrods. Then lastly, pull the heads, pull the cam, and redo those parts.
 
#21 ·
Unless you've spun a bearing, I'd assume the cam bearings are fine, cant really be done easily since to do them right you want to get it line-bored when replacing the bearings. In terms of just replacing the cam, it's easily doable in-car, that's how I did mine. Just make sure to label all the wires and hoses!
Engine Motor vehicle Auto part Vehicle Automotive engine part
 
#22 · (Edited)
Nice picture. Thanks. Dont know if any bearing is spun or how to check. You didn't recondition the heads?

I was working on the main bearings after lunch. I have a 24v impact driver. Main bearings 2 and 3 bolts came out easy. Bolts on 1 and 4 and 5 dont budge. On 4, I broke my deep socket on the bolt with a 30" cheater bar. Afraid the bolt will break now. Wondering how to get them off... going to Harbor freight to get a impact rated socket next.

I called around to see who would/could rebuild the engine.. no one really wants to do that and none wants to deal with a RangeRover... they all just "replace engines" not repair. Too much liability..too much lack of knowledge apparently.

I found one capable shop in Killeen, TX that wants to do it... may end up there if the bolts dont pop. May take a torch to it next.

Did you do the bottom end bearings too? I guess not as I see the sump still in place...

Did you go the Wedge Shop route or with the standard cam?
 
#26 ·
Nice picture. Thanks. Dont know if any bearing is spun or how to check. You didn't recondition the heads?

I was working on the main bearings after lunch. I have a 24v impact driver. Main bearings 2 and 3 bolts came out easy. Bolts on 1 and 4 and 5 dont budge. On 4, I broke my deep socket on the bolt with a 30" cheater bar. Afraid the bolt will break now. Wondering how to get them off... going to Harbor freight to get a impact rated socket next.

I called around to see who would/could rebuild the engine.. no one really wants to do that and none wants to deal with a RangeRover... they all just "replace engines" not repair. Too much liability..too much lack of knowledge apparently.

I found one capable shop in Killeen, TX that wants to do it... may end up there if the bolts dont pop. May take a torch to it next.

Did you do the bottom end bearings too?

Did you go the Wedge Shop route or with the standard cam?
At this point I only did the cam, lifters, and timing set, didn't touch the heads or the bottom end. It was a temporary patch to try to claw back some lost power, but it didn't help much with such low compression. I eventually gave in and sprung for a top-hatted 4.6 build, so that solved those problems. In terms of cam, I chose a wedge shop cam (the "wedge shop 1" grind) which was supposed to give a good balance of mid range power and lower end torque, but due to the low compression I saw little improvement. A note about the wedge shop cam though, if you live in a smog nazi state like California (like me), that cam would never have passed emissions due to sound alone, it had an incredibly uneven/lopey idle (sounded quite good to be honest) that screamed "I am not stock". For my 4.6 build we went with a Crower cam (below) which gives good oomph over stock but still sounds like a stock motor.

 
#23 ·
Down the rabbit hole I go with the main bearings... While the engine in in the vehicle, if you remove the rear main bearing from the crack shaft, will it destroy the rear seal? It looks like it will in this picture and according to the RAVE manual, the seal is pressed into the cap before the bolts are torqued.

Has anybody done that before and is that what RoverMasterTech did in his bearing replacements, remove the rear bearing cap, replace the bearings, and just press the seal back into the bearing cap when it was torqued?

Page 123 of Range_Rover_Classic_Manual_1995.pdf:
 

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#24 ·
Yes I have done this. Removed the rear bearing cap, changed the shells and refitted cap on the old rear seal. It leaked a little before and it leaked a little after. Just try your hardest not to disturb the seal. You can try to change the T-seals (7) but it will make inserting the bearing cap a little bit more tricking - so possibly better not. Alternatively some sealant on the sides as well as the bottom (8).

Then a few years later and I changed the gearbox from auto to manual and with the flywheel removed I did the proper job and changes the rear seal and T-seals etc. Now it leaks even less (wet but but dripping)

The seal is pretty robust and sits pretty naturally in the groove.
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#28 ·
Dang. The inside of your engine looks new. Mine looks way more patina'd!
Good pics of the seal though. Much appreciated.
Mine has dripped too for years but never enough to change the oil level really, just enough to coat the underside and make it grimy. Maybe Ill get lucky.
 
#25 ·
Just to add.. from what I recall when I installed the new seal, you are suppose to fit the seal and then install the cap so you never drive in the seal. With the flywheel removed you just have a better visual to make sure the seal is not sitting wonky - and obviously can change the seal only with the flywheel removed.
 
#29 ·
Where about in Texas? I am in Houston myself. Yes TX testing is a breeze, $7 and never a fail.

I recovered my Rover from a junkyard in Stafford (south Houston). 1983 with 37k miles. Taken off the road around '97 I am guessing dt a burnt out valve, engine partly dismantled by PO, then garage till the owner died in ~2017 and the junkyard got the car. It stood in their yard with engine partly disassembles as it was 'too nice to crush'. Then I found it and nursed it back to health.

Cheap to buy, but so cheap anymore now. Overall in very good condition, seems the PO (R.I.P.) took care of it.
 
#30 ·
Wow glad you saved it from a sad end! The testing jealously from over here is real.....full emissions testing required on anything post 1975, I've failed and had to retest at different times because (1) the gas cap rubber gasket had a crack in it (automatic fail, even though it passed the pressure test) or (2) the timing was 2 degrees off of stock, or (3) the rubber hose to the charcoal canister had a small crack, etc etc etc................The most annoying is the "visual" check, where even if your vehicle passes all the quantitative checks, the smog tech can fail you if he thinks something "looks" or "sounds" like it isn't stock, regardless of what the numbers say. It really highlights the importance of finding a guy/shop you like and building a rapport with them so they wont ding you for silly subjective stuff.
 
#33 ·
New picture here... after a Powerwashing.. There is a little scoring in the gear chamber.. but what would one expect after 25 years? I think at least 25 more years will not do much additional wear. Im planning on putting back the original oil pump gears as they have mated quite well with the housing.
 

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#35 ·
It was you that called it the rabbit hole right? So yes been there done that.

One head was removed and in the back when I got my car. I removed the other and had them professionally rebuild. Turned out the head that was still fitted had a burned out valve . They skimmed, cleaned then rebuild and checked for clearances which were all within spec.I fitted with new composite gaskets instead of the copper one. I bought a head stud set instead of using the bolts. Less risk of stripping. You are not supposed to torque the bottom set (furthest from the engine center line) to full torque. I also used the coated manifold gasket, rather than the aluminium one.

Yes I reused the bearing cap bolts and nuts. Torqued them to spec, but cheated with a little bit of loctite, just because in case..
 
#37 ·
Beauteous. With only 37K miles on it the engine compartment is very nice..mine is extremely grimy.
I was reading around that studs are the way to go, a bit more pricey. Hope they can go on and I can get the heads back on with the motor in the vehicle. I see that ARP #124-4003 will work (similar to ARP #157-4301) with fewer studs.

The 4 rear bolts holding the heads now are NOT accessible with my impact driver, so I was considering using a cheater bar to remove them. Since Im not a full time mechanic Im hoping that will work and not break the bolts. Anybody have an opinion on that issue.
 
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