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LEGACY VENDOR
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Discussion Starter #21
Hi Larry,

I'm only frustrated over all the to-ing and fro-ing about where information is, and where it isn't.

The Wikipedia information is exactly what threw me on this case. I admit, openly, that my information in the original PDF was wrong - due to the information I could find at the time. Thanks for posting the information from RAVE - I didn't know it actually described it like that in the Disco II RAVE - I had a brief look there, but didn't find what you've just posted. My mistake - again.

However, my other point is, that originally I said that if people had known/found errors then to let me know and I'd correct it - and it's taken until now for someone (yourself) to find/post that RAVE data, when there have been posts back and forth, and occasional snarky comments - when if someone, anyone, had posted ages ago "hey, your CD changer data is wrong - there's actually full operation details in the Disco II RAVE" then I feel a lot of the back and forth could have been circumvented.

The thing that twigged me to re-look at the CD changer data was the other thread on it, because I didn't fully believe the Wiki data to start with, but at the time hadn't delved that deeply into the wiring for it, and the pinouts in the other thread made more sense to me, and hence wanted to validate it. Yet nobody in that thread posted any conclusive information (like you have just done) to back up any findings or theories. I want to keep any information I try to provide current and accurate, but as mentioned that fact that my CD-changer situation is non existant - it was never high on my priority list to spend hours researching it, like I have done with the DSP amp connections - as that was more pertinent to my situation at the time.

I think we can all agree that that data you've now posted is conclusive. It also matches the updated PDF attached to my recent post, and I think we can finally say that this case is well and truely closed.

Hopefully others will find any/all data found, posted, shared useful in the future...

Marty
 

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hi Marty, i commended your info before and i'm not/wasn't going to go through that looking to pick holes, it was only the other thread that led to this info coming to light, i'm not sure how i can raise an issue, respond to a post or in fact disagree without over reaction or thinking i'm making 'snarky' comments, i'm not - i said do the looms match, that's all, if it match's it's likely RAVE is more or less worth trusting.
 

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[Sorry, Larry, I still don't know/accept why when working on a P38 I would then have to refer/compare to another RAVE ETM , although actually for the Disco in order to find the written 'blurb' above (albeit with those different connector numbers..) when someone at LR could simply have added this info to the P38 RAVE ETM in about 10 minutes (and also hopefully correctly..) !?]
no need to apologise, You don't have to know or accept anything from RAVE when working on a P38, it wasn't written for you it was written for LR technicians who work across models and would come across this in due coarse.
 

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LEGACY VENDOR
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Discussion Starter #24
I'm not saying you're making snarky comments Larry. I appreciate your help and advice, and for finding/posting the relevant data. I'm sorry if it came across as that comment being directed at you. It wasn't directed at anyone in particular, more of a general forum-wide observation of late.

I don't take comments/changes/advice personally - if something's not correct, then I'd like to know.

Cheers,
Marty
 
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no need to apologise, You don't have to know or accept anything from RAVE when working on a P38, it wasn't written for you it was written for LR technicians who work across models and would come across this in due coarse.
Obviously my note was not actually intended as an apology as such, Larry - More a re-afirmation of the vagueness of RAVE; I fully appreciate that it is 'not intended for me', but neither does it seem detail-oriented enough for many LR Service Engineers, either (and that is a comment I have actually heard them say themselves, in part as a reason/excuse for charging for {additional} hours of work when a better/clearer RAVE documentation could have reduced these...) I don't want technicians just to 'happen across the correct data in due course'- and neither do other LR customers, surely ?

It is simply lazy for LR to have produced RAVE documents with any ambivalence/errors/omissions in this day and age. I believe that any such technical data - if presented badly - will inevitably impact on the reputation and quality of the product.....Again, just look at similar documents from other manufacturers (from the same era) for details !

Err.... now what was the intended topic here again ??
 

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Marty_nz, thanks for taking the time and posting this up. My truck has an aftermarket single DIN unit hacked into it so one day I'll be fixing it...in the meantime, I do have an O-scope and am willing to check anything that y'all might like to have checked/confirmed. Just let me know.

Lol. As an aside the whole nitpicky aspect on display in this thread cracks me up.
 
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I think it is all pretty much sorted now Trionic - but it may make 'certain folks' happy if you look at the diagram I posted up sometime (the one @ 05.11) and 'independently verify' it.... !

PS: It cracks me up, too..... Reactionaries !!
 

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........... I do have an O-scope and am willing to check anything that y'all might like to have checked/confirmed. Just let me know.
Trionic,

Well if you're offering. Connector C0922 (Green) on back of head unit has a pink/black wire on pin 10. I believe this to be the control for the DSP amp to select DSP Off / DSP Driver / DSP Spatial - I'd like this confirmed and to know how these are selected via this wire - simple voltage change or something more sophisticated?

Thanks
 
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If it uses the same/similar I/K bus architecture as the CD changer then you may be looking at another bi-directional digital control bus; If so expect 0/12V square-wave bursts of data (primarily signalling towards the DSP amp), in 5m/s-30m/s packets @ 9.6kbps... (?)

Who actually makes the DSP amp. ? (Could be a big clue....)
 

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If it uses the same/similar I/K bus architecture as the CD changer then you may be looking at another bi-directional digital control bus; If so expect 0/12V square-wave bursts of data (primarily signalling towards the DSP amp), in 5m/s-30m/s packets @ 9.6kbps... (?)

Who actually makes the DSP amp. ? (Could be a big clue....)
Harmon Kardon make the DSP amp. Data bus seems a little overkill for selecting one of only three states and I would expect more than a single wire for a data bus - it seems to use just a normal earth with no specific shielding!
 
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Well you may be correct, in which case you could just check it then with a meter or a basic LED/Resistor probe (?)... ie. no 'scope needed !

However I don't think that HK would go to the trouble of a DSP amp. design and then control it via an analogue arrangement... do you ? ... plus it has to interface with whatever the Alpine HU I/K bus normally gives out.... and expects in return (?). In addition to the DSP control signals sent to the the amp. it sends acks. back to the HU, too, so the HU can respond accordingly if/when necessary.

I/K Bus does not have to be screened, it is very resilient to interference due to the intended environment.. a car !... also a deliberate aspect of that (relatively powerful) bi-directional 0/12v data packet structure mentioned. Such digital signals are essentially more resilient (than analogue channels) anyway.

Not sure why you asked; Do you have a fault or just curiousity ?!
 
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The diagram below - from DISCO & other sources - seems to substantiate my I/K-Bus assumption above (at least as far as DISCO ALPINE HU comms. to & from NAV is concerned !). Again the connector numbers are for DISCO not P38, and in fact the DISCO info. does not give the signal designations either.

On this basis the Alpine HU green connector pins are most probably a variety of programmable digital serial interface facilities (including I/K Bus) to link to/from a variety of other devices (DSP amp, NAV etc)......


- P38 RAVE only shows an undesignated pink/black wire going from the HU Pin 10 (C0092) to DSP amp. Pin 27.... Thanks a lot, LR !

Checking the control signals Alpine HU to/from the HK DSP:-

For clarification (and for faultfinding) if you monitor this wire (Garvin) on the P38 with a meter/probe will not see the very brief data packets: With a 'scope however you will (or should !...) see <30m/s bursts of control data being sent to to the DSP followed by ack. replies within 100m/s for each command sent.

[NOTE: Not 'independently verified' (again) !.... any takers ?!]
 

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It depends Larry, are you now actually trying to do this for real or are we about to embark on another pointless nit-picking tyrade about 'scopes ?!

Anyway here is a big clue.....
 

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Well, Larry, again it was your obtuse use of a word - 'meaningful' .... ie. for who, exactly ?... me, you, Garvin, Trionic, LR, Alpine, HK ??.....

Anyway my question was also genuine, are you doing this for real and if so what 'scope are you using ?
........................................................................................

A suitable/similar method is shown here for CANBUS, at least it provides a useful indication of trigger levels & timebase values (except CANBUS is differential, k-bus is not and is slower, too):-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_k-xd8TdzU

(German;) Bus data is being captured for analysis/printing.
 

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It amazes me how pissy people get when they try to read between the lines looking for stuff that isn't there. To start these rediculous little bicker sessions achieves nothing. Common folks, either answer a question as posted or ignore it. There is no need for the repeated sand box squables and pissing matches. Not to mention I don't need the PMs and complaints that some folks can't keep it zipped up in public.
 
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Again noted and sorry for any/all irritated PMs/complaints RRToadHall, I did not get any directly (yet) !

However it is rather wearing, whilst trying to deal with the topic/problem in hand, to meet the same old destructive criticisms time and time again, eg. whilst another poster endeavours to ‘defend the indefensible’ (RAVE ETM)…etc


Marty obviously worked long and hard on this thread, and, at least as far as I can see, I have tried hard to add value to this and also to answer any new issues/questions specifically related to the Alpine/DSP wiring / signals……
 

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LEGACY VENDOR
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Discussion Starter #40
Sorry, I'm in Europe at the moment with work and between 14-18hour days, little sleep and no internet I haven't been on here in about a week...

As a response to the poster about the DSP info... (garvin I think - I'm on my phone so don't have previous posts to scroll back to whilst typing a reply!). I believe the DSP control line on the Alpine units controls EVERYTHING about the audio output... DSP setting, volume, front/back fade, L/R balance, Subwoofer level etc...

RayA had a thread/post ages ago that said that for people fitting aftermarket with DSP amp, then to make sure you set the volume at least/ over half way BEFORE disconnecting factory head unit, so as to get a useful level out of the amp with aftermarket head unit...

Also the fact that the Alpine unit only has the front left/right wired from the head unit, yet will do all the fade/balance that the earlier units did with all doors wired indiviually, suggests that is now somehow digitally controlled by the head unit and processed by the amp... And my guess would he that info all goes down the DSP line...

As I've mentioned before, I didn't have the amp when I bought my vehicle and have since wired in an aftermarket stereo, so can't scope the DSP line, but I'm sure if someone could collate that data, then there's plenty of people who would find it interesting and useful when it comes to fitting aftermarket units to the later model P38's.

Right.. sleep time! Another 14 hour day tomorrow! Good luck deciphering HK/Alpines DSP signal... Maybe take a look over at some of the BMW forums, as some of those vehicles (can't remember exactly which ones) use a very similar amp to the P38's, so maybe someone over there has already figured it out... Just a thought..

Cheers,
Marty
 
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