RangeRovers.net Forum banner

1 - 20 of 22 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
219 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Having a problem with IDS and looking for some fresh ideas. The software seems to work perfectly in most respects but I cannot get it to retrieve Master or Backup CCF from the car. I'm getting the invalid CCF data screen and have tried many times to overwrite by downloading As built CCF to the car without success. Problem seems to be one of bad communications rather than invalid data.

IDS does communicate with other ECU's in the car but won't talk to either the instrument cluster or powertrain modules. I can read other module DTC's but not the ICCM or PCM which just give DTC errors. The only download I have been able to achieve is to disable steering column tilt.

Was originally running IDS 117.5 and could not get it to work. Now fully updated to latest version 118.5 V5 P20 with all patches, calibrations and VCM reflash but still no joy.

Can anyone suggest what I might try next? :cry:

Thanks
 

·
Premium Member
2010-2012 Range Rover MkIII / L322
Joined
·
4,635 Posts
Re: IDS - All data deemed invalid. CCF loaded from As Built data

Is this a non-genuine version?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
219 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
Re: IDS - All data deemed invalid. CCF loaded from As Built data

The VCM is indeed an 'economy' version, but the IDS software is genuine. I did not mention that so as not to immediately cloud the issue but a faulty VCM is of course a potential suspect. Particularly as I am on my second VCM. The first simply refused to boot up. The current one was the same until I discovered that it would boot if I left it powered on for about 10 minutes to warm up. Once past the boot process it will run happily all day and seems to behave as it should, including accepting updates from IDS.

IDS is the only program installed on a completely clean dedicated XP Pro SP3 laptop with no firewall or anti-virus.
 

·
Premium Member
2010-2012 Range Rover MkIII / L322
Joined
·
4,635 Posts
Re: IDS - All data deemed invalid. CCF loaded from As Built data

I don't know much about IDS but I do hear that it still is a bit of a pig, even with the correct updated software and genuine hardware. I'd guess (and this is a guess) that the problem is due to the copied VCM, and that the software is probably fine. Any chance you could step backwards with the software?

Wait for some further answers from more knowledgable boffins.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
520 Posts
Re: IDS - All data deemed invalid. CCF loaded from As Built data

Had a lot of trouble myself with these cheaper clones failing or giving unreliable communications to some ECU's.
Most often it is only on one of the Busses only though.

Have you tried doing a Hard Reset ?
What model are you having the problem with?
Have you tried the system on another Vehicle?
Also do a network scan to see if the missing ECU's are all on the same Bus
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
820 Posts
Re: IDS - All data deemed invalid. CCF loaded from As Built data

It seem's to be the same old story with the cloned versions, so you're not the only one.

I've never had a problem with mine (geniune) so i can't comment to much about your issues, but i hear the same story every week regarding the copies even though the software is genuine.

At the end of the day, they do work but not 100% & there are reports that the copied VCM's cause damage to some vehicles so most of the trade won't touch them with barge poles, but somewhat acceptable for private owners.

The only advice that is 100% that i can give you is to chuck it away & buy yourself a more professional system, as the VCM IDS is a long winded retarded piece of kit at the best of times.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
520 Posts
Re: IDS - All data deemed invalid. CCF loaded from As Built data

I have also heard of that Rick, and i know comms can be dodgy on some of the clones, i think its just down to RAM quality at higher throuhputs, and i am not sure that all clones are equal if you know what i mean, as i hear some using them no problem, (well not yet anyhow) but i have also heard of ECU's being lost on genuine IDS systems too. Ask any dealer :shhh:

I recently almost lost an Autobox ECU on my own Disco 3 which would have been most annoying as it is built into the gearbox and is no easy swap out :twisted:
It seems that LR must have seen some problems when programming gearbox ECU's that are hot, so they retro added a routine into the IDS software, to check the gearbox temp is below 85 degrees before programming is permitted into the script. Sounds sensible, you think, read on.

So my IDS reads the temp and its plenty cold enough, then it erased the old operating system and then commences uploading the replacement OS. Great if it goes in ok first time, however, bad connection, waning battery voltage, one of those glitches we all know can and does happen, and sure enough, it copped out mid way. :twisted:

Oh well, it happens, and under normal circumstances, you could and would just start again, as the ECU supports that, but guess what was overlooked when they added the temp check pre requisite, without a fully installed and working Operating system, the ECU simply cannot supply the temperature info diagnostically and it errors when asked, kicking IDS out completely. :twisted:

I know a dealer would have little other choice but to change the ECU, and other than giving the customer a shock, that would have been fine (for the dealer), as a new ECU has an OS ready installed, Fortunately for me i also have a Faultmate MSV-2 :wink: and while it reads the Temp, and advises the minimum temp requirement to attain before programming, it just displays an error if it can't be read, and it does allow the erasure and re programming to continue :thumb:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
219 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
Re: IDS - All data deemed invalid. CCF loaded from As Built data

Thanks for the feedback guys.

On Sunday I decided to start from the beginning by reinstalling IDS to make sure there was no software glitch. As we also have a Mazda I partitioned the laptop and reinstalled XP Pro from scratch twice. I put the latest version of V118.5 JLR IDS + current updates on one partition and V61 Ford/Mazda IDS on the other. This took all day :(

Yesterday I tested and cutting a long story very short, there was no difference on the RR, nor could I communicate with the Mazda at all so I have concluded VCM comms are definitely the problem. It will not communicate with any module on the RR's HS CAN bus.

Before posting my query here I'd done much research on the net, mostly in Ford forums as it seems hundreds of Ford owners have IDS, but not found specific mention of a comms issue with a vehicle. Most problems appear to be between PC and VCM. Colin, your post above is the first time I've read of that and your observation of issues at higher throughput exactly pinpoints what I think is my problem. Have you tried swapping the RAM if that's possible?

I too am unconvinced as to whether the "genuine" item is of any better quality, it's likely to be manufactured in China or nearby anyway, unless someone knows better?. IMHO the extra $$S are paid for a warranty and the support of the supplier, and maybe the product is tested before shipping. It seems there's basically no support or testing from China. It either works or it doesn't. What I don't understand is why they are having problems in making a mass produced electronic device reliable. So VCM no. 2 is on it's way back and we'll just hope no. 3 is better.

Rick, I agree the IDS software is slow and frustrating, but it is a worldwide dealer level system and thus the bugs get fixed weekly. Can you recommend an alternative system which can download the factory patches & calibrations?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
520 Posts
Re: IDS - All data deemed invalid. CCF loaded from As Built data

Hiya P38ace
In my experience, if the IDS software is talking to the VCM ok then it is usualy fine. as most problems are due to network config issues. But no harm in trying :)
The two Busses use different pins and the VCM has internal re routing circuitry. It's not unusual that the clone VCM's dont work on one or the other, i have seen a couple like that and in fact i have one here that only works on the HS bus. And i think most if not all Fords only use one bus anyway.
But to make sure it is not your Car you should try another at least.
The Ram is just one of the big fine pitch surface mount chips on the board and i have not tried identifying or replacing it.

I too am unconvinced as to whether the "genuine" item is of any better quality,
Let me dispel that thought straight away. The guinine IDS VCM is a work of art, An ultra fine multi layer board with thick 100% gold plating all over, The chips are also all genuine first class quality componants and even the discretes are all good brand. The assembly quality is like that you find in mobile phones and could not be improved, i am sure, if it were intended for use in outer space. The clones are a world apart, no gold, only rough tin plating, all the componants are cheap quality copies with even their printing being poor and they look like they were assembled by school kids. I have one here where one of the sandwhiched and inter connected boards is so warped it pops its connectors out if it is knocked, so i had to use tape round the boards just to keep them together.
BTW my opinion is not just formed about seeing one or two by the way, i have had reason to pull about 7 apart so far. I sent so many back that the supplier gave up on me, but thats Ok cus i had already given up on them, having learnt my lesson.
I know there are some with a good working clone out there who are happy, but it realy is the exception than the rule, so If you are going to go down the IDS route, for gods sake pay that bit more and get a genuine one. Give the clones a very wide berth.

I am glad that you agree with Rick (and me for that matter) the IDS software really is a complete pain in the ass to use, it is without any doubt the worst user interface i have ever experienced, and i have seen a few, but like you i recognise that it is after the genuine kit and the poor old dealers have managed with it for years and it is after all where all fixes and upgrades initially come from, so i have to work with it all the time. :twisted: However Rick has more reason than most to criticise it, because he also has a Faultmate MSV-2 which means he is somewhat spoiled and usability wise, MSV-2 really is as good as it gets.

Yea call me biased, after all i designed the MSV-2 and its software, so i am bound to say that, but honestly it really is true. and without going into pro BBS mode let me explain why i say that

Can you recommend an alternative system which can download the factory patches & calibrations?
Up until last week, no, but last week we released our flashing upgrade, now our customers can re flash / update any ECU on their cars with any applicable data set they fancy, right up to date to V118.5 patch 19 standards (well 20 was not out then and contains nothing for LR anyway). Already a chap i know has a thriving business programming earlier Phone modules with software for later ones that enables the Phone Book over blue tooth that the IDS does not permit, insisting that the owner should instead spend out on replacing the module for a later one.

CCF, you obvioulsy know what it is and possibly what it does, but how would you like to decode it, edit its hundreds of settings in an easy to understand form and change anything you like. Thats been possible with an MSV-2 for ages and for just as long users have been using it to enable expensive features in their vehicle such as 4X4 info, voice activation and so on.
If you want to see what that looks like here is a disco 3 one but the RR one is the same
http://www.blackbox-solutions.com/photos/CCF_disco3_new.htm

Our software can already reprogram the EMS with any OEM software map, but In the next couple of weeks we wil be relaesing another upgrade that will allow its owners to also use it to program enhanced performance maps produced by nothing less that the most respected in the industry.

So in all fairness, yes i am MSV-2 biased, but in all fairness it really is for a damned good reason. the IDS is a good and fully capable system, but it really is just the starting point for us. :thumb:

So while i sinceraly hope that your number 3 VCM turns out to be something you can live with, but if it does not and you decide to look for an alternate, all i can say is that perhaps you might consider getting a little MSV-2 spoiled yourself. :dance:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
219 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
Re: IDS - All data deemed invalid. CCF loaded from As Built data

Hello Colin,

Thanks for sharing your observations on VCM internal quality comparisons. I've not had the opportunity to pull one to bits, yet, but I'd be a little happier now buying genuine knowing that there is a difference. Maybe the genuine should be considered an investment given the way gold prices continue to rise :)

I have tried another car (New Mazda which I have zero diagnostic knowledge of) and was unable to establish comms at all. The VCM had to go back anyway due to the cold boot problem I mentioned previously and also intermittent network drop out due to dodgy LAN connection at the VCM input. (Was not sure whether this was the cable connector or on the board but suspect the latter)

The purchase was an experiment in the capabilities of IDS. You know how it goes. You read all the sales blurb and reports but until you try it out for yourself, you don't fully understand with regard to your personal application. I intended to buy genuine if the system proved to be worthwhile and so far IDS seems OK. I won't be using it every day, basically I just want access to my vehicles inner workings without having to visit a dealer. Or before and after visiting the dealer :lol:

For me the real beauty of IDS lies in the factory calibrations and patch downloads for all current models. Can I ask whether your latest product upgrade is able to automatically download these from your server and if not how you would go about identifying the necessary files and sourcing them?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
520 Posts
Re: IDS - All data deemed invalid. CCF loaded from As Built data

Hiya P38ace
Ah no worries, i never tried any Mazda either, i thought that was a light bulb
And yep i certainly do know how it goes, its my job :lol:

The Genuine hardware is very good quality, you can tell which is which if you pop the plastic cover off and peek through the slot, you will see the Gold in them there hills.

Yep, our Flash programming stuff is kept bang up to date, we even have the 2010 stuff in there.
Mind you, we don't update our system unless there is some very good reason to do so, and i think you might be surprised to find how irrelevant the IDS patches are outside of a dealership, Open one up, its only a zip, and there is a handy contents text file. As you will see its mostly adding "As built" data for newer cars by vin and mostly thats Jags anyway. But since dealers do PDI's on brand new stock thats how up to date they have to be.
Trust me, most the ECU's on your average out of warranty car have not seen any change / improvement or update in years.

One of the nice things we allow, that IDS does not, with flashing ECU's, is actually the cross over of data files that are really for later hardware into earlier hardware. For example if you want Phone book over Blue Tooth enabled with IDS, you have to have an ECU with part number XVJ500171 or later fitted, and you can then select a "with phone book over blue tooth feature" data set
But if like many, you have XVJ500170 fitted, you can't with IDS as there is no data set for that hardware, so you have to fit a new ECU, however the earlier phone modules do support it, its just its not so lucrative to allow them to be upgraded i guess, However some of our more switched on customers are now programming the later software into the earlier ECU's and seeing not only the new Blue tooth over phone book feature, but also all the other benefits such as improved reliability and connectivity.

It's interesting because you probably think IDS reads what hardware is fitted from the hardware and chooses its software selection based on that info, but ohhh nooo, your software is actually chosen by IDS based entirely on your VIN, or more accurately the build data from when it was constructed which is specific to your vehicle only, yep seriously. If you fit a second hand and perhaps later bit of hardware, it will still get programmed with the earlier software. It's all explained in our Flash File loader help files.

But anyway, this is already way too long and too deeply technical post already, unless you or any readers really wanna know more.

There is actually a basic tutorial video on how to use our Flash File loader application to select differing data sets on our site if you fancy a look,
http://www.blackbox-solutions.com/downloads/videos/Flash_File_Loader.html

In fact there are a few there on the downloads section, you should check out the CCF edit one.
And, while i am at it, here is a link to a saved L322 CCF file, if you fancy a look at what it contains.
http://www.blackbox-solutions.com/photos/L322_ccf.htm

If you PM me your VIN, i will show you what yours contains :thumb:
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,855 Posts
Re: IDS - All data deemed invalid. CCF loaded from As Built data

BBS SPY said:
In fact there are a few there on the downloads section, you should check out the CCF edit one.
And, while i am at it, here is a link to a saved L322 CCF file, if you fancy a look at what it contains.
http://www.blackbox-solutions.com/photos/L322_ccf.htm
In that link, what are the %%% numbers next to the various options for?

And what are the "Phantom Options" about: "user discrimination disabled"/"user discrimination enabled"?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
520 Posts
Re: IDS - All data deemed invalid. CCF loaded from As Built data

Hiyas Paul
The percentages are the approximate percentage of vehicles that were set that way based on analysis of the settings of typically a couple of hundred thousand of each model.
I thought to add it because one day i fitted steering wheel switches to my Disco 3 and went to change the setting to tell the vehicle that it now had them.
However rather than having a simple "Fitted" option in compliment to my currently selected "Not Fitted" one, i was met with a choice of 7 different options, 1 wire resistive, 2 wire resistive, Medium speed CAN, Local Interconnection Network, etc. I could probably have done it by trial and error but, thats not really very good, so instead i looked up another cars settings and saw that was set to 1 wire resistive ladder, so i knew what to choose to set mine up right.

So i thought to expand that methodology and add its usefulness right there where it is needed as the percentage at the end of each possible selection

As you can see from this Discovery 3 CCF, in those models 27% of vehicles do not have steering wheel controls fitted, 72 % are set to 1 wire resistive and the rest all 0. The maths is due to loosing the decimal placed bit.
http://www.blackbox-solutions.com/photos/CCF_disco3_new.htm

On the L322 as you may have seen, all 100% are set to CAN BUS.

As for the many strange options you see listed, Ford have a policy to share their utilization of such technology as the CCF methodology for configuring how each car works among all Vehicles developed under their ownership. Which makes sense, and as you can see here is a Range Rover L322 and a Discovery 3 CCF, but its found in a few others such as Freelander 2 and so on. But if you think that is bad, we have already done the 2010 CCF stuff, as it all changed and now there are far more vehicles all using the same CCF stuff, like Ford Fiesta and Transit, Mazda,s, Jaguars, Volvos, to name but a few. here have a look yourself see. http://www.blackbox-solutions.com/photos/CCF_EUCD_Disco4
Hence the CCF's contains a lot of settings and options that have no relevance, meaning or effect on any of the Land Rovers. To help identify those which we know are actively used, as opposed to those we understand are not, we bold their titles.

It's actually quite powerful stuff, although granted not everyone would ever need to use it, but i did big time. My own Disco 3 started life as the lowest spec you could get, now its the highest with a very full inventory including all options like Logic 7 14 speaker stereo and i did it all in a few weekends for less than 2k GBP. Heres a picture of it during the loom swap stage.



When it was all fitted as per OEM it only took a couple of minutes to re configure the Vehicle to get it all working as if it were buiilt like that and i also modified the bit that IDS uses to program teh ECU's too.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
219 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
Re: IDS - All data deemed invalid. CCF loaded from As Built data

Hello Colin & Rick,

Just bringing you up to date on the outcome.

I now have a third and fully working VCM at long last. It appears the problem with the first two may have been just the OBD cable ( I only sent the VCM unit back the first time). Over the last week I have used IDS several times to check & configure my vehicle without any problems. Overall I am fairly pleased with IDS although it is painfully slow to use. I would not be impressed if I had to use it on a daily basis but it does work well, if eventually. Hopefully the interface and speed may improve over time.

Colin, re your comments about the XVJ500170 ECU. I have the XVJ500170 fitted and was able to apply the Phone book over Blue Tooth upgrade with IDS. All that was needed was to tell IDS that it was a XVJ500171. Worked like a charm and as you said, is a worthy upgrade.

Now just have to crack the navigation "destination entry on the move" which is configurable with IDS for European vehicles but not other markets. Any ideas on the easiest way to get around that?

All the best for the New Year from Down Under.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
520 Posts
Re: IDS - All data deemed invalid. CCF loaded from As Built data

Hiya P38ace

Not played much with the IDS's Nav on move capability much so i have not seen any Market requirement for it.
What i can tell you is that it simply involves downloading the special NAV on Move software to the Touch screen module, (about 50 mins) followed by enabling Nav on Move in the CCF, and then loading the origional or latest version of the Touch screen software back into the touch screen module (another 50 mins)
so there sure as hell is no market aspect to it from a functionality aspect.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
748 Posts
Re: IDS - All data deemed invalid. CCF loaded from As Built data

anyone tried the new SDD program yet?

and on the dealership level IDS is the best. It never fails or breaks down or freezes up. Never.ever ever ever.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
219 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
Re: IDS - All data deemed invalid. CCF loaded from As Built data

Have waited a while hoping someone would answer. Now i've got to ask, what is the new SDD program?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3 Posts
Re: IDS - All data deemed invalid. CCF loaded from As Built data

Dears,

So good to communicate and share information with you...

I'm using the SDD. it's much better than early IDS legacy as it's much faster. Auto Chassis detects which saves time. check the systems individually which make you more specified. in fact it's more useful for 2010on M.Y as you can get the wiring map etc..

overall it's much better than early IDS and they keep improving all the time so I hope it will be more user friendly...

Regards...
Salman EiD
Land Rover Specialist
Bahrain
 

·
Premium Member
2010-2012 Range Rover MkIII / L322
Joined
·
4,635 Posts
Re: IDS - All data deemed invalid. CCF loaded from As Built data

SDD is part of the IDS pack you get when buying the kit. As said above, you can enter the last 6 digits of the VIN (like IDS) or just click the 'READ' tab next to it.

To be honest, it's still no where as nice to use as Omitec's UCM. Shame it is taking them so long to get it developed properly.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
820 Posts
Re: IDS - All data deemed invalid. CCF loaded from As Built data

Yes, You're right there Rich.

You just have to type in the last six digits & the vehicle pop's up.

It's like every over system in the way it operates. I call it "Behind the curtain" because you can't see what it's doing.

Oh no, here it comes, i can feel it coming, can't stop myself Oh no, ah what the heck. This is why our Little ole buddy Colins stuff from BBS out performs anything i've ever come across or used because you can see exactly what's happening.

I only use my IDS for jaguars & fords, although it does work it just doesn't do the magic on range rovers.
 
1 - 20 of 22 Posts
Top