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Discussion Starter #1
Hi everybody,

please watch this and tell me what you think

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l83kMGU3m5A

Just got RH exhaust manifold gaskets replaced (both). I also had a faint ticking noise coming from the RH side which was atributed to the head gaskets. Mechanic said I should be thinking about replacing head gaskets in the near future (he gave me a month or so). 3 days later I get this puffing sound. It's very loud !

What do you think ?

a) exhaust manifold gasket wasn't the problem in the first place, manifold was cracked from the beginning.

b) exhaust manifold gasket were bad, replacing them restored pressure and made old head gaskets blow ?

c) combination of both

I'm not getting coolant or oil leaks, nor steam.

Will drop it back to my mechanic first thing in the morning, but I'd like to get there with a 2nd or 3rd opinion under my sleeve.

Thanks in advance,

N.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Oh well... dropped the Rangie at the shop.

Apparently is option B: manifold is ok, but head gasket is blown.

As I write this, the top engine is being pulled apart. During the next couple of hours I'll be receiving the final verdict.

Already ordered an ARP stud kit (best price I found was on ebay, at CNC-motorsports shop, USD 130 delivered).

I'm waiting for my mechanic's confirmation before placing an order in AB for the full head gasket kit. Hopefully I won't need other parts... yeah right ! :roll:

I hope the camshaft/lifters/rockers aren't too worn that would need replacing.

You know, the waiting is the hardest part... :)

N.
 

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I feel your pain Brov. I had a headache just like yours and sounded just like that too, just before last xmas. Now a month later, and £850 poorer, headache fixed, but, the noise masked a cracked exhaust the sound of which goes away once the rig warms up. However it now goes and sounds better than ever... :dance:
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Blue58 said:
I feel your pain Brov. I had a headache just like yours and sounded just like that too, just before last xmas. Now a month later, and £850 poorer, headache fixed, but, the noise masked a cracked exhaust the sound of which goes away once the rig warms up. However it now goes and sounds better than ever... :dance:
Thanks for the kind words.

BTW, what was the job done for 850 quid ? You just got a head gasket job ? What about valves/lifters/etc.. ? I'm tempted to just do the gaskets and a valve job. Still haven't heard from my mechanic though....

N.
 

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The heads were warped so they had to be skimmed and all the gaskets renewed...

I thought I had two lucky escapes from overheating as a result of a dodgy radiator and then a blown bottom hose... alas not so at all. I detected no symptons leading up to the problem.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Blue58 said:
The heads were warped so they had to be skimmed and all the gaskets renewed...

I thought I had two lucky escapes from overheating as a result of a dodgy radiator and then a blown bottom hose... alas not so at all. I detected no symptons leading up to the problem.
Same here, except my 2 lucky escapes resulted from a clogged radiator and later on, water pump failure. Hope my heads aren't warped. I don't trust local guys to do the skimming.

N.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Follow up:

yesterday afternoon I dropped by the shop. Top end has been removed. At first I was shocked to see my beloved Rangie torn apart, beheaded... but it had to be done. Heads never been removed in 10 years, so it was a matter of time.

Here are a couple of things I learned that day:

- compression test showed it was -15% off. My mechanic tells me it will probably be 10~9% off after gasket replacements. Obviously I don't pretend to have the same compression performance of a new engine, but is his estimate reasonable ?

- Liners show no movement (already suspected this since I didn't have any symptoms, but is good to have it checked).

- Lifters wore out evenly, without square patterns, which implies camshaft is good (isn't it?). Push rods are fine as well. Will reuse the lifters for a while. Later on, hopefully in a year or two, I'll overhaul the engine, if it's really needed.

- Rocker shaft assemblies look good. They will get disassembled and cleaned.

- I was told engine condition was very good for it's age. It didn't have massive gunk build, just a thin black patina all around. It paid back that the previous owner always used good fuel, good oil and never missed out the scheduled maintenance.

- Some oil passages where mildly clogged. Once they are cleared it will hopefully silence the initial tappet rattle at startup. It's not that bad, but I'm knitpicking here.

- I was shocked to find out the lifters and rods piled up, without id tags. I've read on RPI and Rave that you should refit all these parts in their original positions. I'd love to have some feedback on this. Probably it'll turn out fine, and it won't make any difference, but what if it does ?

Parts are on their way. Hopefully they'll get here by Tuesday. That will give the shop plenty of time to clean everything. Heads won't get skimmed unless there is warpage (which I forgot to ask).

Take a look.... what do you think ?

[attachment=4:381o91xa]sm-IMG00032-20100209-1627.jpg[/attachment:381o91xa][attachment=3:381o91xa]sm-IMG00033-20100209-1627.jpg[/attachment:381o91xa][attachment=2:381o91xa]sm-IMG00036-20100209-1628.jpg[/attachment:381o91xa][attachment=1:381o91xa]sm-IMG00037-20100209-1628.jpg[/attachment:381o91xa][attachment=0:381o91xa]sm-IMG00038-20100209-1628.jpg[/attachment:381o91xa][attachment=0:381o91xa]sm-IMG00038-20100209-1628.jpg[/attachment:381o91xa]
 

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Discussion Starter #9
[attachment=3:276ns9m3]sm-IMG00039-20100209-1629.jpg[/attachment:276ns9m3][attachment=2:276ns9m3]sm-IMG00040-20100209-1629.jpg[/attachment:276ns9m3][attachment=1:276ns9m3]sm-IMG00041-20100209-1629.jpg[/attachment:276ns9m3][attachment=0:276ns9m3]sm-IMG00042-20100209-1629.jpg[/attachment:276ns9m3]
 

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My engine mde the same noiselown its right hand head gasket. When I rebuild engines at work and at home I always keep every thing in order. Some of the lads at work dont and this never seams to make a differance.
 

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I guess they didn't drain the coolant before they started pulling it to bits? Will probably have to pull the sump off too now, to get rid of all the coolant that's dripped down there. :(

Numbering the tappets is always wise - each one wears very slightly differently and ends up closely matching the bore it is removed from. If they are put back in different bores, then the difference in wear patterns can result in oil escaping too quickly and/or being too tight. Re pushrods, not really too bothered about those - can check the with a vernier gauge if you want. The tappets will take up differences in the pushrods.

Engine rebuilds should be done with clinical levels of cleanliness.
 

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I'd be concerned about the lifters. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I always thought the problem is where the lifters make contact with the cam. They do develop a unique wear pattern and they should not be interchanged. This is especially true on a high mileage engine. Of course it depends on the condition of the lifters and cam, but mixing them up will likely accelerate the wear on both the cam and the lifters. I'd also be concerned about the mechanic that's doing the job. By not draining the coolant or keeping track of the lifters and pushrods you have to wonder what other shortcuts may be taken. You can see crud down in the cylinder bores. At this point I believe the damage has already been done. New lifters are probably better than mixing up the old ones but it would have been best to put them back where they came from. Why did he remove the lifters anyway? Or are you talking about the rocker arms because that's a different story.
 

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i would have left the lifters, i dont like disturbing them, or at least put in new ones. the rods an rockers wear together and the new mating surface wont be perfect, will wear in in a few thousand miles but will need readjustment.

I dont like planing heads, how do you know the deck is straight? I hope that was checked. if the contour of the head matches the contour of the deck then all is good, if you plane your head then you have a surface that is different from the deck creating more pressure in spots then others = gonna blow a headgasket
 

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To check the tappets/lifters, put a clean metal 'straight edge' across the bottom of them - they should be perfectly flat - not dished in any way. Dished means it will wear part of the cam lobe (one side) more than other, which is not cool.

If you've got a digital vernier gauge and a few hours free, check the diameter of each tappet across several different diameters, at several different heights on the tappet. You want virtually no 'runout' or 'ovality'. If you've got extra time, try doing the same thing to the tappet-bores in the block. If you can sort the tappets from big to small and also sort the tappet-bores from big to small, you maybe able to put them back such that you maintain oil-clearances, across all of them.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Thanks for all the input guys !

Yeah, the coolant issue and it's implications escaped me at first, but you're absolutely right. I'll have a word with them about it.

I was looking again at the pictures and realised the lifters were in place. I got confused because I was shown a lifter which was sitting with the previously mentioned mess of parts (rockersshafts, rods, etc.). I hope those guys didn't mixed up the lifters. I'll swing by tomorrow morning for a quick follow up.

N.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
There's been no progress at all, mainly due to the fact that the parts haven't arrived yet. I'm still waiting for the head gasket kit which is expected to arrive in 2 days.

I made a quick escape from work today and visited the shop. It turned me off to see they didn't make any work on the heads, valves, rockershafts, etc... not even cleaning ! Don't know what are those guys waiting for. I'll speak with the manager tomorrow to get things moving. Parts need to be clean and ready before the gaskets arrive.

I want my Rangie back, can't wait forever !!

:evil:

As a side note, I asked the guys in the shop to remove my steering wheel, to be re-upholstered in the meantime. I had this work done 5 months ago, but the leather reacted and it got nasty spots. Don't ask me, I dunno what happened. Fortunately the guys who did the work are experts in BMW/MB so I'm confident they'll fix it right. And under warranty also.

Ohh, and I got a new set of Bosch Evolution blades (22, 21 & 19) in, waiting to be installed. :)

I miss my Rangie.... :crybaby2:

n.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
The plot thickens...

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=37306

Summary: first, exhaust manifold gaskets got replaced. At that point my mechanic assured me the RH manifold wasn't cracked and that new gaskets will fix the little noise I was having. Two days later, engine starts to puff as crazy (see previous video), which was diagnosed as a blown RH head gasket. Apparently, after changing the exhaust gaskets, the new higher pressure finished to blow a weak head gasket. That made sense, so I got a full head gasket job. Now, when starting the newly refreshed engine, the RH exhaust manifold is making noises, due to a crack.

Now, I'm a little lost here. If the head gasket blew after restoring pressure due to newly replaced exhaust gaskets, then how could it be that my manifold is now crakced ? Or was it always cracked from the start ? If so, then how do you explain the head gasket incident ?

I'm lost. :think:

Any theories ?

N.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Update:

After replacing the last piece of the puzzle (RH exhaust manifold) now my Rangie is running smooth as ever. I also checked the MAF sensor readings (per AllyV8's suggestions in viewtopic.php?f=3&t=31924), and after verifying that reading were normal, I reseted the adaptive values. Right after doing that, the engine started idling a little lower than before. Since then the Rangie has gained balls... lots of balls. It accelerates faster and feels so much responsive. Obviously my fuel consumption has gone through the roof, but it's getting better day after day. I guess I'll have to give the ECU a chance to relearn my driving habits.

I'm still waiting for somebody to chime in with some theory on my previous post.

N.
 

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Only theory I can come up with is that a cracked exhaust manifold lets gasses escape that should be measured by the lambda for the ECU to adjust fuel mixture. If lets say half the gasses escape, the Lambda might get a incorrect reading and adjust incorrectly resulting in a unproper mixture. Now it has a good mixture and likely why it has more power.
 

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Sounds to me like the crack in your exhaust manifold was your only problem from the start. A cracked exhaust manifold will make the sound that was on the video you posted and me thinks you just paid for an un-neccesary top end overhaul. Think about it for a moment, he says that the manifold cracked because the new head gasket restored the exhaust pressure to a point that it cracked the exhaust manifold? Isn't the exhaust manifold designed to take the pressure produced by the engine in normal operating conditions. Why would restoring the exhaust pressure to normal cause the exhaust manifold to all of a sudden crack? IMHO you just got burned and should find a new shop to do repairs in the future or do as the rest of us do and diy. The pics of your engine teardown with coolant sitting on top of the pistons should be enough to prove to you that this guy doesn't know what he's doing. Who takes an engine apart without first draining the coolant? a person whom doesn't know what the f;;; he's doing, thats who? find a new mechanic, and take this guy to court and get your money back for the un-neccesary rebuild. Better luck in the future and don't be afraid to get a second opinion next time. :mrgreen: T
 
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