[rangiecrazy]

Hi,

Sorry if this has been covered before. Please point me in the right direction if I've missed something whilst searching.

I have been reading quite a lot about various gearbox issues with both the diesel and petrol (2002 to 2005) models and it's obvious that there are problems with both the ZF and GM versions.

I'm still searching for the 'right' Rangie (here in Australia) and have now noticed a couple for sale that have had recon' gearboxes. Both of these were on the petrol models. I'd kinda decided to go for the petrol (as a result of numorous and various realistic and unrealistic mind debates) and am now getting in a 'muck in fuddle' (confused) over whether I'm doing the right thing.

Anyhoo, opinions (again here in Oz) are that the petrol gearboxes are more likely to fail, whereas the diesel gearbox is OK. One specialist said that he'd never heard of any L322 failures, but had seen a couple of D3 'boxes 'let go'.

Other forums suggest the diesel box is more likely to fail, rather than the petrol. (This was in the UK, I think).

I have also read somewhere that the diesel gearbox WILL fail at a 100000 miles.

Jeez....what to think!

Now, for some questions......

Is there a gearbox 'data base' where we can refer to for information, pictures, servicing etc etc (such as references to RRphil threads)?
Will the diesel 'box fail at 100000 miles?
IS there a common fault with either gearbox?
Can a gearbox be saved from future problems if it is serviced from day 1, meaning, if the oil is changed for example every 40 or 50K miles will it last trouble free for say 250000 miles?
Were there different 'series' gearboxes fitted to vehicles shipped to Australia (or any other country)

Thanks for all your input

 

[RRPhil]

My opinion, for what it’s worth, is that the evidence from this, & other, bulletin boards points strongly towards the GM 5L40-E transmission - fitted in the early diesels - having an inherent weakness which seems to rear its ugly head around the 80k to 100k mile mark. This weakness appears to relate to internal hard parts (possibly within the torque converter, although reports vary) breaking up and contaminating the fluid which subsequently clogs up the valve block & hence affects the control system. I don’t see that regular fluid changes would prevent the cause of this failure though it may alleviate the symptoms. I’m not very familiar with the GM transmission but I think that Stevemfr (our man is Strasbourg ) may possibly have some more information if he’s around?

Moving on to the ZF 5-speed transmission fitted in early petrol (BMW-engined) L322s. I WON'T HEAR A WORD SAID AGAINST THIS TRANSMISSION . Seriously, this transmission too seems to have its fair share of problems at higher mileages but these seem to be more varied in nature. Having said that, I have seen a number of examples of a particular issue which I call the "bearing then O-ring" failure. I’m currently working on a theory for how this failure comes about as it doesn’t appear to be much in evidence on the earlier BMW & Jaguar applications of the 5HP24. I suspect it may be because ZF had to ‘turn up the wick’ to get the required 440Nm torque capacity for the L322/E53 applications. The higher hydraulic pressures place more end thrust on the A/B-clutch assembly which increases the loads on the four axial needle bearings. The particular bearing that fails first sees relative speed in all but 4th gear but will be unloaded in 5th (i.e. no A-clutch engaged) so I suspect that Range Rovers which have worked hard in 1st, 2nd & 3rd gears during their lives (towing, etc.) may be prone to this failure whereas vehicles which have spent their lives mainly cruising up & down the motorway in 5th gear will never suffer with the problem (clearly this poses a difficulty when you’re buying a ‘previously enjoyed’ vehicle and you don’t know anything of its history). Once the bearing collapses it provides sufficient clearance to allow the A & B clutch drums to move apart relative to each other, uncovering the O-ring seal between them, causing it to fail. Hydraulic pressure cannot be maintained (especially when warm) and the infamous TRANS. FAILSAFE PROG message and limp-home mode are the inevitable result. Anyway, as I said, this theory is still very much ‘work in progress’ and I’m highly likely to be proved wrong!

Changing ‘liftetime fill’ fluid at 100,000 miles (and sooner if the fluid has ever seen higher than average temperatures) is clearly to be recommended but I’m not convinced that it would prevent the failures described above.

Obviously it would be interesting to hear other opinions.

I can’t find any information that suggests different territories/countries received different transmission hardware (though I guess software calibrations may be different?). I’m pretty sure the transmissions are the same wherever in the world the vehicle is sold.

Phil

 

[rangiecrazy]

Hi RRPhil, thanks for your input, very much appreciated.

Seems odd that the diesel 'box in Australia appears more reliable. I suppose it's difficult to to even suggest this without decent research, though.

'Spose I need to keep my eyes open for a low mileage petrol, that doesn't have a tow bar, and service the gearbox regularly.....or look for a D3.

Just out of interest, the faults you mentioned on the ZF. Are these repairable by someone who is 'handy on the spanners'? Does the gearbox need to be dropped? Are 'recon boxes in the UK built up with any mods, or just rebuilt using standard parts?

MAny thanks

 

[RRPhil]

Are these repairable by someone who is 'handy on the spanners'
Certainly, and if you don’t need to remove the clutch pistons no special tools are required.


Does the gearbox need to be dropped?
Yes. Other than the valve block, everything comes out of the front of the transmission so any repairs to the running gear have to be done on the bench


Are 'recon boxes in the UK built up with any mods, or just rebuilt using standard parts?
Good question. I’m only a keen amateur at this so I can’t give you a definitive answer to that. However, I would make the following point :

The L322 driveline was developed side-by-side with the BMW E53 (X5) in the late ‘90s – BMW having owned Land Rover since 1994 – and the X5 was launched in 1999 using ZF’s 5-speed 5HP24 transmission (ZF had launched the 5HP24 in 1996). As BMW continued the development of the E53 the six-speed (6HP26) transmission superseded the 5-speed in 2003 (ZF having first launched the 6HP26 in 2001).

By contrast, BMW sold Land Rover to Ford (PAG) in 2000 by which time the driveline for L322 was fixed (including the 5-speed ‘box) though the Range Rover wasn’t launched until 2002. It was another four years before Ford finally engineered the Jaguar engine together with the 6HP26 transmission into the L322 so the Range Rover was the only vehicle left in the world still fitting the outdated 5HP24 transmission, Jaguar & BMW having dropped it in favour of the 6-speed years before.

For that reason I suspect that there were few modifications made to the 5HP24 during the Range Rover’s lifetime as ZF, by then, were well and truly focussed on the 6-speed unit. The only difference I’ve ever noticed is the one-way orifice valve for the E-brake in the valve block duct plate changed (restriction diameter) at some point during the four years.

Phil

 

[Guest]

I’m only a keen amateur at this so I can’t give you a definitive answer to that.

With all due respect Phil, what a load of cobblers :lol:

I'm a mechanical engineer who has been working for automotive tier 1's for way more years than I care to remember, your knowledge and enthusiasm and the shear breadth of you willingness / ability to help all those with transmission releated problems astounds me.

You are truly a skilled individual in more ways than one. i take my hat off to you sir (if I wore one) :clap:

 

[qwert]

I actually told about you to my colleagues who are interested in cars. One told me that Porsche forum has pro mechanics. I haven't seen dealer guy here ( sorry if I miss one ). It so much trust within whole community in you Phil. Take my all best wishes and I take my hat off for your commitment.

 

[rangiecrazy]

Hi RRPhil,

Sorry it has taken a while for me to respond to your last post. I got called away to work (which is an 8 hour plane taxi) and now I'm back in the routine of working I thought I'd better put index finger to keyboard.

Many thanks for your input, very much appreciated.

There is a lot spoken about the gearboxes and I was trying to get it all on one post. Many thanks again :clap:

I'm still not sure what to do, though! I've even researched the D3 and this seems to have it's fair share of problems.....probably more so than the RR.

Thanks again

 

[vinniman]

Cray.

Welcome to this forum sir and hope we can shed some light on your questions to come. The gearbox is only 1/10th of the equipment either functional or dis-functional in this very capable vehicle or any car for that matter and must be maintained.

Have you decided which way to head towards your future near new FFRR ? Best to avoid the BMW TD6 models with respect to continuous engine problems and give us an idea of how you're intending to use the beast for a better analysis/suggestion !

Cheerio,


Vinniman
'88 Highline
Perth, W.A.

 

[rangiecrazy]

Hi Vinniman,

No, haven't made my mind up yet. I like the power of the V8 (but not the economy). Haven't had the chance to drive a TD6, yet, as none for sale locally.

I've really gotten into a tiz over the gearbox issues, so have even started looking at D3s but they seem to have even more issues.

The Rangie would get use for the odd school and weekly shopping trolley. We want to do more exploring locally and not. So a drive to Ayers rock, Cape York (telegraph track) local beach and Frazer Island etc etc. Probably need to carry kit for 2 adults and 2 kids. Simpson desert crossing is on the cards, as well. If I went the V8 then I'd get a trailer to carry kit and fuel......actually I'm gonna get a trailer anyway. No 'comp truck' escapades, just honest touring.

I test drove a V8 vogue and had made up my mind to buy it, but the deal fell through, as I felt he was asking too much.

Then I spoke to a Landrover dealer who recommended buying a D3 "any day' over a Rangie (even though they didn't have anything in my price range).

Now I'm back to the diesel/petrol debate....again.

You mention in your post to avoid the TD6 beemer model due to engine problems. What problems are they?

Cheers

 

[vinniman]

Cray.

Sounds like one needs to first ask the question if you want a Land Rover or prefer a Range Rover ? If you're having a hernia tossing up about the puff-matic's, go see www.carpoint.com.au which has listed a Disco3 for sale with the 6 speed manual ?

To really get to grips with the full un-biased answer to your questions, visit the local newsagent and order in or pickup a copy of the latest "Dog & Lemon Guide", the almighty bible on every single maintenance history for vehicles sold in Australia/N.Z.
The Black Disco3 example on 'carpoint' is only worth around AUD$35k, but is packed to the rafters from your prescription of future use & Land Rover even issued the base model with coil springs if you wanted to avoid all the future suspension issues !

Personally I'm a Classic Rangie man, which means petrol-auto-V8-coil springs. Be patient, only look at the colour and palette choice you're after with my suggestion of petrol V8 MkIII pre-2005 or diesel V8TTD FFRR post-2007 for a Range Rover model.

Cheerio,


Vinniman
'88 Highline
Perth, W.A.

 

[rangiecrazy]

Hey Vinniman,

Thanks for all that.

I'm in danger of disppearing up my own wotsit! I can't believe that I'm dithering so much. Suppose I don't want to make the wrong decision, or have the 'nay sayers' groaning when I'm stuck in a creek crossing with no snorkel.

You say you have a petrol Classic. Do you do much touring, if so, how do you overcome fuel requirements when really remote. I mentioned I'd probably tow a trailer with fuel for really remote stuff. Any forseeable issues with that?

Lastly, what is wrong with the diesel Rangie?

Why do you recommend the pre 2005 V8.

Cheers

Cray

PS - If my funds allowed, I'd already be posting pictures of my TDV8!

 

[rangiecrazy]

Vinniman,

Regarding the black manual D3 on carpoint. You reckon this is worth 35K, as it's listed at 49,900!

Cray

 

[vinniman]

Cray.

With an asking price for the Black Disco3 example, this truck is nearly Six years old and has been listed for nearly a year ! For an extra AUD$10k above the quoted figure, you could go to a dealer and purchase a new Disco4 with the 6 speed manual ?

When you go looking in the next month and come across a Land Rover or Range Rover that interests you, drop me a PM and I'll happily give you an idea of what their worth in the marketplace depending on their year, mileage, specification and model.

Cheerio,


Vinniman
'88 Highline
Perth, W.A.

 

[rangiecrazy]

Hi Vinniman,

"I just gots to know......" (quote from Dirty Harry)

What is wrong with the diesel Rangie?

Why do you recommend the pre 2005 V8.

http://www.carsales.com.au/all-cars/pri ... BFA102F892

overpriced??

Thanks for your help

 

[Stevemfr]

Best to avoid the BMW TD6 models with respect to continuous engine problems

The M57 engine is not known as unreliable.

I'd like to know too - you've been asked in several posts. What is supposedly wrong with the TD6?

 

[vinniman]

Gents.

Pick up a copy of the "Dog & Lemon guide" and all shall be revealed. I've driven both the L322 BMW V8 with ZF 5 speed auto & the L322 BMW TD6 with GM 5 speed auto - quite simply the petrol is far superior in moving this "Luxo barge" on wheels.
The BMW TD6 diesel lump in the FFRR was an earlier generation version of that installed in the BMW X5 of the same era, notice the engine capacity difference between both vehicles and was subject to blowing turbochargers during BMW ownership !

Face-lifted models of MkIII's from 2007 to 2009(minus Stateside) were issued with a far more reliable TTDV8 diesel, being a derivation of the french designed TDV6 found in the Discovery3/RRS and was fitted with new third generation common rail.
All Full size 2002-2005 deploy a simpler four wheel drive system which when things go wrong is easier to diagnose, as well as the option in future if the airbag suspension system starts failing, can be swapped out with the 'British Atlantic' coil kit.
If you're still unsure of going for the Land Rover or the Range Rover, go to www.youtube.com and type in Topgear-Discovery or Topgear-Range Rover and see a Disco3 climb a hill in Scotland or the Rangie compared to it's competition for an answer ?

Cheerio,


Vinniman
'88 Highline
Perth, W.A.

 

[Stevemfr]

OK, so we're back to square one.

Yes the TDV8 is more powerful - and, around here anyway, a very big step up in price from a good TD6. And, while the heavy RR is no rocket with the stock motor, it's not an absolute dog either. On top of everything else, this motor is very easily chip-able. And, if the chip is from a reputable tuner, there are generally no problems with this motor in chipped tune. Turbos can be one of the items to keep an eye on with the M57 - the BMW and Jag V8's have there own issues, tho. And to call the TDV8 'far more reliable' is a gross exaggeration. Not to mention the problems with the D3. Do a google on 'Land rover D3 problems' or 'LR3 problems' and see what you come up with. (just a short list of quotes: ...we can't help feeling the big 4x4 is more at home around town than on muddy country tracks..., Despite horror stories we have heard from some readers about patchy build quality and engine problems...)

The suspension on the 02-05 was not really changed dramatically through to the present models as far as the mechanics go. Castrating a 06 with a coil conversion is just as possible as with an earlier RR.

And to top it all, the RR has won the 'Best 4x4 of the year' award from numerous off road magazines in Europe repeatedly - including one German mag (4wheelfun) that tests over a standardized off-road course. The RR beat all other 4wd's year for year as of 02 off-road due mainly to it's ability to articulate - also the highest in the tests. To think that you'll be better off road in a D3 vs a RR is silly. The nuances defining the limits of the off-road ability of each is far beyond the off-road ability of most drivers.

So, it basically comes down to wants, needs, and budget. Square one.

 

[vinniman]

Cray.

Hope you received my PM earlier this weekend - if not let me know through the forum ? I understand you're in Queensland which is a bit of a trek to see some listings on carsales, but if you want me to check out FFRR's out west drop me a PM soon !
I'm heading off to Adelaide for a conference in a week, so if need be and anything interests you down there than feel free to get in touch beforehand. Remember, if you can afford to buy a Range Rover than you can afford to run one as well mista.
The telegraph track near Cape York has been really muddy recently, as my mechanic just returned from a three month stint around Australia in his Disco3 towing a camper trailer & encountered treacherous conditions with 1.5m high water crossings.
I've attached the link from carsales which I've calculated as the best value for money L322 available in HSE specification, it's open to offers and is worth no more than AUD$34000 Large. By the way, I've got a K&N air filter for this model as well dude.

Cheerio,

Vinniman
'88 Highline
Perth, W.A.
http://www.carsales.com.au/all-cars/pri ... 2&trecs=18

 

[rangiecrazy]

Hi Vinniman,

Yeah I got the PM, much appreciated. Sorry did not reply sooner......been under the pump...err quite literally.

The offer of you checking out RRs for me is fantastic!

Let me have another scour on carsales and I'll PM you if that's OK?

I've been 'watching' carsales for ages and have noticed some have been there for a looong time, but the vendors are reluctant to drop the asking price, and I'm reluctant to fly to visit one just on that basis. I think most of the private ones are quite overpriced.

Anyways, thanks again and I'll PM you.

 

[Stevemfr]

(Hmmm, I'll just ignore that guy - don't like what he's saying)

:lol:

Have fun looking at RR's you guys. There are much more unpleasant pastimes.