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Engine swap, Fuel issues

1531 Views 10 Replies 6 Participants Last post by  kg74
On a 2003 RR, with M62 engine. I did a full engine swap from a BMW 540.

After the engine swap. my fuel pump wasn't turning on. After an investigation, I concluded it the wire from the glove box to the relay to signal the relay to turn on. However, to bypass any fuel pump issues, I just jump wire at the relay so the pump is always on. Confirmed by sound.

We attempted to start it with starting fluid, however, it was not firing or giving fuel, so we concluded we needed to change the crankcase position sensor. We change the crank position sensor.

We attempt to start it now, with starting fluid. It fires up, then dies. I would conclude we have spark, just no fuel.
We attempt to start it without starting fluid, it does not fire up at all, just cranks.

Then I wanted to see if the injectors are injecting... I confirm pressure at the Schroder fuel valve, repressurize with the fuel pump (jump wire), then crank it. I test pressure aSchroderer fuel valve and still same good pressure.

I want to conclude all injectors are not firing... What should I try now to see if its an injector problem or signal to injector?
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Couple questions. Did you own the RR before and was it in running condition? Just need to know if you can eliminate some items as the cause.

I believe if the injectors are not firing the fuel will not inject and therefore the pump will not turn on. Check your wiring connections on the injector harness.

Do you get any codes?

Did you use the original intake and injectors or those from the donor engine? Can you give a run down of what went with the swap from the original configuration?
No I bought the vehicle with a non working engine, with unknown reason to why it wasnt working.
I took the vehicle to a repuable shop and they concluded the cylinder wall were scored up and engine needed replace.
Upon engine swap, the oil pan was full of metal filings.

The injectors are from the donor 540.
The salvage yard more than ressured me that 540 was running and was mint. Said engine warranty 90 days.
The wiring harness are from original engine.

The wiring harness box (on top of engine), clip directly into the injectors, they all look to be clipped in well.

The only code I got, was mass air flow sensor. At the time, I had the air flow sensor disconnected. I rerun the engine with it connected, no difference.

I also have not connected the exhaust, my plan tomorrow is connect the exhaust with o2 sensors, to rule out that as an issue.
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Update, the exhaust is hooked up, with sensors. Made no difference
All fuses are checked and are good up front with the ECU box
There is fuel in the fuel rail.
I verified the ground to the ECU box is good connection.

I really am out of ideas here.
I confirm pressure at the Schroder fuel valve.
Just because a fuel rail squirts does not mean the fuel pressure is up to snuff. How old is the fuel filter? whenever messing with major operations like an engine swap you must maintain as much of the Rover system as possible. You must also cover basics like filters. A restricted filter may still deliver limited fuel, but not enough to fully fire or supply enough for the engine to run.

I really think you need to start from scratch. Purchasing a non running car with unknown history and obvious poor maintenance rarely ends up with positive results. It's may have been more than an engine issue if the rig was allowed to get to such a point where the cylinders were scored bad enough it wouldn't run.
I agree with RRToadHall that you need to start from scratch - at least back up a bit. For now let's assume the engine is good per the place that sold it to you (really you have no choice as the original intake, injectors ... are in an unknown condition - your situation is not optimal), but I would like to know when it was run last as there is gas in the rails and this could be bad. So moving along this line of thought let's move forward.

But before moving forward I want to warn you that damaging the engine in a no start, but turns over, condition is possible. If you are spinning the engine and it is pumping gas you could wash the cylinder walls and trash the engine. Been there and done that, actually my wife did it for me. So be careful. If in doubt smell your oil for gas, and maybe add a tiny amount of oil into the spark plug. [Note: What you described regarding the original engine - scored walls and metal - could have been caused by the same condition you are now struggling with - although it is possible it was caused by timing chain guides - Again Warning! To be safe you need to get everything in order without turning that engine over too much. This means figure out your fuel supply issue - whether wiring, fuel filter, fuel pump, fuse, relay and/or ?]

First let's start with the easiest possibility - the gas is bad. How long has the gas been sitting in the tank? If the gas has been there too long this could be your issue. Related is the gas that is in the donor engine fuel rail may be stale. Generally gas will work for a year or more, but it is something to think about. From what you say your issue is most likely not stale gas. I would think on these lines if you have running issues - but something to think of in the back of your mind once you get it going.

You state that your fuel pump is not turning on. You did some jumper work and concluded the pump works. So back up and check your fuses and relays. I believe the relay can be swapped with the one next to it in the boot. Do some research and confirm. There is a good video on YouTube where the poster walks through his testings - watch it. I have included some postings similar to yours below where members work through their similar issues. After reading these and watching the video, one contains a pretty good explanation of the system operation, you should be able to diagnosis and repair your fuel delivery at the pump. You need to get your fuel system working correctly - no jumper rigging - that way you can move on to the next potential issue. Right now you know you have a fuel delivery issue - solve it first.

Next go to your fuel filter - it could be clogged. Its age and the extended sitting may have done it in. Just change out the fuel filter to take it off the list, they are not too expensive and unless the thing looks brand new the fuel filter maybe the original 15 year old filter.

Here are some links to look at.

Check this cable near the battery: http://www.rangerovers.net/forum/6-...1481-next-step-crank-but-no-start-03-hse.html

See here for this guy's trouble shooting: http://www.rangerovers.net/forum/6-...ange-rover-fuel-pump-electrical-problems.html

See here pump and filter http://www.rangerovers.net/forum/6-...866-03-hse-died-highway-fuel-pump-filter.html

Work through these items and report back with specific issues and failures - with this approach it will be easier to help you.

It is possible the original engine died because of oil starvation caused by failed timing guides. (It would be great if you could look into this as it excludes other possible issues. Engine #2 on my RR met its death in this manner, while Engine #3 from cylinder wall wash -- both had scored piston walls but for different reasons. Dropping the oil pan of the original engine will reveal if the original engine died because of failed timing guides as it will be littered with plastic pieces some in the oil pump pick up screen - ask the shop if you cannot go back and look or you may know this when you did the oil pan swap to the 540 block) Back on topic, if the original engine failed due to timing guides you can assume, with greater certainty, that the rest of the RR is operative. With this assumption you can focus your diagnosis on the electrical portion of fuel delivery that may have been taxed by trying to start an engine that will not start. This would be fuses and relays.

One other place you may have a problem is if a rodent chewed through a wire related to fuel delivery. By working through the diagnostic tests this will reveal itself.

By starting from scratch and going through all of the diagnostics in an orderly manner, removing items once they properly pass testing, you can focus the forum's resources and help you work through the roadblocks.

After you get fuel delivery solved - next step will be to look at your injectors, but for now it is assumed they are working as the donor engine ran.
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What I have seen in the past is that the same 12 volts turning on the fuel pump turns on the injectors. There are two things required to operate the injectors, or any circuit for that matter, in a vehicle. You need 12v and ground. The 12v is easy to confirm. Using a DVM, or digital voltmeter, with one lead connected to ground, check both connections at the injector. One should have 12v on it. If not, locate the source of the voltage ad trace to battery. Many vehicles use the ECM to control relays, a main for the voltages to the engine, and one for the fuel pump. Moving an engine from one vehicle to another can be tedious; it is necessary to be methodical and observant. Make no assumptions. Ray
So you still havent checked accurate fuel pressure then, as I suggested in your last post.....
Also from my last reply....Fuel, air, spark.
Kinda hard to try to help someone who tries to halfazz a job where testing is concerned.

When I changed the pump only on ours the clamp that held the fuel line was not adequate to seal the fuel line to the injectors. The symptom of the issue was that with key on the fuel pressure (gage on fuel rail) would show up to 50 psi and the pump would shut off and the pressure bled off to zero. Pump would not stay running but would turn on again when the ignition key was cycled. Once i secured the pressure side of the pump output properly everything was fine. The other symptom was a long cranking period before the engine would start (which made me realize that something was still wrong). I am still not sure what signal is required to keep the pump running. It may be oil pressure or something else. Storey Wilson did a video that also showed that a relay could be intermittent but that seems less likely. Perhaps Ray has an answer to this question which may help you solve this.
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Turns out it was a loose pin on a connector behind the glovebox. As reported by the repair shop...

Running rough, need to do some more diagnostics before I report back
Good to hear it was not anything more serious, but finding a loose pin is no easy feat. Keep us posted.
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