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Discussion Starter #1
Engine rattle/knocking - Chains/Chain guides & Vanos already replaced! Input needed!

Folks, good day!
I have a tricky one here :twisted: and would like to get your input:
RR 2005 HSE 4.4 (M62 engine)
93000mi
Error code: Bank 1 retarded timing

Background information:
The “*****” started making the engine rattle/knocking noise where at first impression one thinks that the chain is lose and the chain rail is bad. My friend, who owns a shop, and I fixed a BMW 740 (same engine) about 3 months ago where the chain and the rails had gone bad and the noise was almost identical. The BMW was very sludged up – we scraped chuncks out of the oil pan and only had to do the chains, not the Vanos (for comparison)

Now here is the challenge:
1) We changed the chains and both VANOS (!) along with the all tensioners and believe it or not the noise is still there!
a. I know that the timing is spot on – 1000% !
2) We switched the Vanos Solenoid from side to side with no change in error code – the Solenoid seems ok and I assume if they were broken I would get a different error message.
3) We checked the stop valve behind the solenoid which is ok (only for start up anyway)
4) We checked the oil pressure at the oil filter which is all right as well (around 45psi/3bar I think I remember)

There is not a whole lot left that can be done here….

Oil delivery problem?
I am dreading to do the potential next step (oil pump change – 14 labor hours!!) before I have ruled out other potential causes.
Our suspicion is that the oil pump which seems to have 2 outgoing feeder pipes - where the smaller one of the feeder pipes is delivering oil to the Solenoid which feeds it into the Vanos might be blocked – we unscrewed the Solenoid to see if there is oil being delivered and it seems too little oil delivery to feed the Vanos to build an oil cushion to adjust to the solenoid timing change requests (+/- 20 degrees, default fully retarded -20 degrees)

A long shot would be to spray carb cleaner into/at the Solenoid valve canal and therefore down to the feeder pipe/oil pump to unclog the delivery pipe but I would feel better if I had an oil flow diagram of the engine which is nowhere to be found…(I checked on the bimmer sites already..)

Your input is appreciated – solid well thought out comments without guessing are my favorite type of comments J

Oh and btw – it’s not the oil :naughty: – you can run these engines on espresso

Regardless after 6 or 7 Rangies I think this might be my last one – bought it for my better half but this is too much hassle even for my big heart for them – the Jaguar engine ’06 based model might be better but not sure if the hassle is all worth it anymore /:(
 

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Re: Engine rattle/knocking - Chains/Chain guides & Vanos already replaced! Input need

try adding some rislone or BG cleaner to the oil run it for a few hundred miles then change the oil and filter.

It sounds like your work may have added to the increase in sludge in the engine,
thus the oil system may be getting clogged.

You might consider dropping the oil pan to inspect the oil pickup,
this is easy once the oil drained out
 

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Re: Engine rattle/knocking - Chains/Chain guides & Vanos already replaced! Input need

Thanks for the input, I appreciate it.

I already ran seafoam through it and I checked for sludge when changing the chains (you can peek into the oil pan, not really any sludge and the camshaft area and the front part of the engine was fairly clean too. My work did not add any clog up as there was no material movement of any build up.

From my preliminary under car inspection and research, dropping the oil pan is part of the 14 hours of labor (book value, I might be able to do it quicker) and no quick task - the axle runs through it and the sub-frame has to come out etc...on any other car it is a piece of cake - not on the Range Rover...

This is more involved than the chain and Vanos....
 

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Re: Engine rattle/knocking - Chains/Chain guides & Vanos already replaced! Input need

It sounds like your work may have added to the increase in sludge in the engine,
thus the oil system may be getting clogged.
I think the sludge problem was in his buddy's 7 series not the RR
 

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Re: Engine rattle/knocking - Chains/Chain guides & Vanos already replaced! Input need

:?: C'mon guys, where are the Mechanical genius's :idea: - I would so very much appreciate help with this and humble request your opinion and input!!!
 

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Re: Engine rattle/knocking - Chains/Chain guides & Vanos already replaced! Input need

I'm doing the same with mine at the moment also, best i could find to help look at how Vanos Valve worked was via this doc http://www.e38.org/m62tu.pdf

P
age 5 onwards, best i could find, as my oil pan full of plastic bits and fine metal from chain that eat into guards, after a bolt holding the return looks like it snapped
 

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Re: Engine rattle/knocking - Chains/Chain guides & Vanos already replaced! Input need

PROBLEM SOLUTION:

After gradually taking the car more and more apart here is what transpired - VERY hard to believe and I am not sure if I will ever be able to answer what happened :)

1) Needed to get to the oil pump so we removed
a) Axels & Steering rack
b) Differential
c) Subframe

All this is not super difficult, just time consuming and a PITA.

After having the oil pump removed and inspecting it we found no condition worth mentioning aside from a small amount of sludge in the chamber containing the pressure relieve valve that feeds or rather exits the large pipe of the oil pump.

Once the oil pump is removed one has access to the 2 oil ducts that run through the engine block (lower) - we tested block flow on the small pipe which feeds the chain tensioners and the Vanos units - no luck no oil getting there.

We cleaned (the pump and the pick up! - the pick up has a fairly fine screen!) and re-assembled the oil pump and tested it on the block to see if the pump would be able to get oil through the small whole - no luck either which mean that we still had a blockage and that the engine had to be removed. (remember we had oil pressure on the oil filter housing)

I would actually recommend doing that in the first place as you can leave the sub-frame on the car along with the steering rack, and the Differential comes out as it is bolted to the oil pan with the engine and it is much easier to work on!

We removed the engine and took the heads off to check the small feeding canal in the block - the feeding canal is located on the front and upper side of the engine block (Vanos side) - removed the head gasket and you will discover a check valve!!!!!!

We remove the check valve - and now, get ready here it comes, on both sides before the check valve were pieces of oil filter clogging and blocking the oil flow on the small oil feed in the block.
I am NOT talking small particles , I am talking a chunk of the oil filter "cardboard" (see photos showing check valves with rubber sleeves and particles) - it was literally one big piece on either side of the block causing the blockage .

It is physically impossible for it to get there as the oil filter housing has a mechanism to prevent this from happening (but I have my doubts this works well) but the particles most definitely cannot get through the oil pump pick up screen nor actually get into the smaller pipe of the oil pump in to the block. The pieces were too big and the oil pump is pretty massive and I believe should have ground up the material but even if you say somebody threw it into the top of the engine these pieces should not be there, it will remain a mystery how they got there....

I hope this helps somebody! 2013-05-17 RR Engine blockage (4) marked.JPG 2013-05-17 RR Engine blockage (5) marked.JPG 2013-05-17 RR Engine blockage (9).jpg 2013-05-17 RR Engine blockage (3).jpg 2013-05-17 RR Engine blockage (14).jpg
 

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Re: Engine rattle/knocking - Chains/Chain guides & Vanos already replaced! Input need

thanks for posting an update
 
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