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2006-2009 Range Rover Sport
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Discussion Starter #1
Greetings,

I just bought a non-running 2005 L322 (BMW engine) to rebuild/fix up. The engine starts but misfires badly (some backfire) and dies after running 10-30 seconds. IIDTool came up with Camshaft position sensor circuit bank.2 and misfires on cylinders 5,6,7,8 (makes sense, driver side bank). I did replace the Camshaft position sensor but no change.

Engine sounds like it is out of timing on bank.2 (cylinders 5,6,7,8 ). What can cause the timing to go out on just one side of the engine? I do plan to replace timing chain and guides but am wondering if it is the VANOS causing the timing issues. With the amount of out-of-timing to cause backfires, could that be because of VANOS or just timing chain slipping the sprocket?
 

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2002-2005 Range Rover MkIII / L322
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I would stop and pull the valve covers and look at the timing guides to see if they are broken. It is not an ideal way to examine them, but it is a good place to start. You can just look down and see if pieces are missing. If they are broken they can cause what you are describing. Broken guides can destroy your engine.

A worn vanos should not cause the issues you describe, but if they are really messed up it is possible. I have only heard one case of them being in such a sorry state. Usually they go bad and just make for a noisey engine with some performance loss.

Do you have the timing tools? If not send me a pm and I can possibly hook you up.

Any more details you can provide will also be helpful, mileage and prior owner's version of issue.
 

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Dont throw parts at it yet before you check cylinder compressions as well. When I first bought my non running 05 I had the same symptoms and jumped to redoing timing, new battery, new plugs, new sensors. It still didnt run. Came to find out the cylinder walls were scored so I rebuild the whole engine. You can search for my rebuild thread. Good luck!
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Thank for the reply and suggestions. Car has 126K miles on it and previous own told me that it was running fine and just one day started misfiring. He didn't want to deal with it so ended up selling it cheap.

I do not have the timing tools and don't have much experience with BMW engines. I used to own a P38 (Bosch engine) and have done rebuilds of headgaskets, EAS, transfer case etc. I'm planning to start on L322 in 2-3 weeks time, as there is a ton of snow on the ground and I have to pull the car into the garage once snow clears a little.

I would definitely take you up on help with the timing tools.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Dont throw parts at it yet before you check cylinder compressions as well. When I first bought my non running 05 I had the same symptoms and jumped to redoing timing, new battery, new plugs, new sensors. It still didnt run. Came to find out the cylinder walls were scored so I rebuild the whole engine. You can search for my rebuild thread. Good luck!
Rovah, thanks for your suggestions. With the timing out how would you suggest I run a compression test? I think on bank.2 I suspect I might not get correct values with valves out of time.

Any other way to check scoring on cylinder walls?
 

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I had the same experience as Rovah, and if I recall I may have told him to examine for cylinder wall score.

For that reason I wouldn't run the engine until you do some visual exams. Fear is causing damage when none is there. Smart approach is to check for damage before trying to run the engine. You can check your chain guides by pulling the valve covers. You can drain your oil and look for metal sparkle (sign engine is toast and walls are scored). You can put a camera down the spark plug hole and take a look. You can drop the lower oil pan and look for plastic chunks and see some of the cylinder walls and lower pistons.

The process escalates as you find and/or don't find things. You have two concerns - first is failed timing guides and second scored cylinder/pistons. Sometimes they both happen and sometimes they don't. So you have to choose whether to drain the oil and pull the pan (easier) and then escalate to pulling the valve covers.

I am also from MN and I had one engine fail due to cylinder wash, coldest day of the year and wife kept turning it over, and the other one was how I bought the car. Here the prior owner drove it until the guides did not exist at all. Oil starvation and engine was toast.

I saw on MN craigslist a M62 engine for cheap. It is not Vanos, but you really only need the bottom end. Check if the block is interchangeable, if it is I would push up your time line and go take a look at it. For now you need to see what your block looks like.
 

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Thank for the reply and suggestions. Car has 126K miles on it and previous own told me that it was running fine and just one day started misfiring. He didn't want to deal with it so ended up selling it cheap.
this really should tell you something...Perhaps he had it diagnosed and knows of the problem at hands and decided to get rid of it and not disclose. Just my speculation. Anyways please follow what Kg74 said. We have both been through it the hard way.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
this really should tell you something...Perhaps he had it diagnosed and knows of the problem at hands and decided to get rid of it and not disclose. Just my speculation. Anyways please follow what Kg74 said. We have both been through it the hard way.
I will follow your suggestions and 1st try to inspect the engine as much as possible before start throwing parts at it. I did buy the car with an understanding that it might need a new engine and have been looking at prices for a used M62tu at junkyards.
 

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I bought McGregor, my 04 L322, with the same understanding. It may need a new motor. The suggestions above will save you time. Prior owner told me it only needed timing guides, being an idiot, I believed him.

After I installed the timing guides, new chains, and started to prep it for final timing I hit a road block. The motor would not rotate past certain points. At this point, I did what I suggested above. I found the block was destroyed by pulling the heads.

Looking back I could have just pulled the lower oil pan and looked up and seen the damage. The gouging was right there easy to see on some of the piston walls. In addition, if your timing guides are gone, you will find chunks and maybe metal sparkle.

The third engine I installed was purchased with a blown head gasket, but ran pretty well. I had all the parts from the two prior engines so I could piece together a solid engine, which I did.

On the second engine I put in, which failed due to being in poor shape and cylinder wash - once I dropped the lower oil pan and looked up I saw the gouging and metal sparkle. A 30 minute diagnosis. (It took me much longer as I thought I had a bad starter, which I had rebuilt).

Here is the point - once and if you determine the engine is toast you stop work and pull the engine. Saves time. Saves money. Aides in the replacement engine search.
 

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Kg74 Funny you said that. I thought I had a bad starter too and threw a brand new one at it. Struggled to fit it because there was literally no room to work!
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Engine sounds like it is out of timing on bank.2 (cylinders 5,6,7,8 ). What can cause the timing to go out on just one side of the engine? I do plan to replace timing chain and guides but am wondering if it is the VANOS causing the timing issues. With the amount of out-of-timing to cause backfires, could that be because of VANOS or just timing chain slipping the sprocket?
So finally got around to start tearing the engine apart. Oil pan drain did not show any pieces of timing chain guide or metal shavings.

After getting the valve covers off, I found the culprit. The nut on the front of drivers side Cam cog was loose and VANOS cog plate was free moving. Looks like previous owner had the timing chain and guides replaced (guides look pretty new) and somebody probably forgot to properly torque the nut. That's probably why the engine's driver side bank was out of time.

Now the question is, do I need to time the whole engine or just the VANOS? It does look like timing chain is tight and doesn't need to be adjusted. I would also need the timing tool and germanautosolutions site shows they are out of stock for the tool. Once I find the tool, I'm hoping just retiming the engine would fix it.

Does anybody have any suggestions on where I can get the timing tool?
 

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German Auto is on point with their tools. So wait for them unless you are on a time crunch. I usually email them and ask them to inform me as soon as the tool is back in stock. I do agree, just retime the engine with the tools.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
So I was able to rent the timing tools, locked the flywheel with pin and with (back of camshafts facing up with numbers) put the blocks to hold the cams. All was good till I tried to undo the right cam sprocket bolts. They are supposed to be torqued at 80/92 ftp but I am not able to break them loose, even ended up breaking the Hex55 bit with a breaker bar. I suspect somebody might have put too much locktite on the bolt when putting it on, because the chain and guides look pretty new.

The problem that caused timing issues in the 1st place was the loose nut and bolt on the left intake camshaft after somebody did the timing chain and guides. So I suspect they put too much locktite on right camshaft bolts and forgot to put any on the left side. Since I couldn't break loose the right cam bolts, I only timed the left side and hoped it would work. But it didn't and engine is still out of time.

I'm going to give it another try but I need some help with what to do next, if I can't break loose the right cam bolts. As per instructions, all cam bolts L/R exhaust and intake have to be loose before setting the VANOS timing. Is that necessary? or just the both intake cam bolts need to be loosened to time the VANOS? Any tips on what to try to break loose the cam bolts without damaging the cams?

I would really appreciate any tips from experts that have done this before.
 

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How did you go
I had the same problem undoing the cam bolts, only on the exhaust cams
I broke the hex tool to
I ended up cutting the timing chains with an angle grinder, holding the cams in the vice, turned the compressor up to 150lb pressure
A half inch rattle gun wouldn’t touch it, a three-quarter drive undid it after about four or five tries
There was no loctite used, they are a left hand thread
 

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How did you go
I had the same problem undoing the cam bolts, only on the exhaust cams
I broke the hex tool to
I ended up cutting the timing chains with an angle grinder, holding the cams in the vice, turned the compressor up to 150lb pressure
A half inch rattle gun wouldn’t touch it, a three-quarter drive undid it after about four or five tries
There was no loctite used, they are a left hand thread
:shock: you made the key point being that the bolts are left hand threaded, so you turn counter-clockwise to tighten and clockwise to loosen.

Tools needed:
1/2" 2ft breaker bar
T55 torx bit (1/2" drive)
27mm open ended spanner wrench
2 people

Process:
1 person holds the camshaft with the 27mm spanner wrench (cam timing lock blocks should NOT be on the cams)
2nd person inserts the torx bit into the cam bolt and gently turns clockwise to loosen while 1st person applies counter-pressure

Follow-up:
Works every time. If too much loctite was used, you can take a small center punch and shock the front of the cam bolt a few times, but nothing beyond that.
 

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This happened to me also on Bank 2. I think the reason it happens is not following the timing procedure. My theory, and I stress my theory, is that one has to take out all the slack on Bank 2 chain and then go to Bank 1. The slack on Bank 1 is picked up by the chain tensioner. I cannot figure out any other reason for this happening, and happening frequently enough that there are many posts on the subject. Back to my theory - the little extra play in the chain under de/acceleration torques the vanos sprockets and the bolt loosens. As I did Bank 1 first and thought nothing of it until I had the issue - that is my theory.

After countless tests as to why my engine died I pulled the valve covers and found the same thing. No damage to anything - just needed to retime.

So - just saying take up all the slack on Bank 2 and then go to Bank 1 - follow RAVE's procedure.

As to the T55 - I have found that the bigger the T55 (1/2" over 3/8" - if you can find a 3/4" even better) is the way to go. You cannot have any flex in the breaker bar. I have learned this by experience - once switching to 1/2" or 3/4" on the crank bolt - all problems disappeared and the bolt came right off. Yes it is reverse thread. Yes you need a second person to hold the cam. and yes you need to keep that Torx as straight as possible.

If my theory of why the vanos bolts loosened is correct, you have to also service Bank 1. The chain is a fixed length once the Vanos are locked - so Bank 1 will not time correctly as that little extra play is in the system. To get it out you have to loosen Bank 1 - the chain tensioner will not do it.

My timing tools are in Howard MN - Chinese clones. I have not been out there since we communicated, but send me a pm and I can try and set you up with the guy that has them. For the 27mm spanner - I have one ground down you can borrow. Again PM if interested.
 

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I don't understand how timing chain guides can effect the timing. The guides disintegrated in my 2004 L322 and she ran fine, although it sounded a little funny with all the plastic bits flying around the chains.

Theoretically, a piece of plastic could block the oil pump intake and starve the engine for oil, followed by your typical oil-deprived engine damage, but that's about it.

As far a freeing up bolts with thread locker, heat will melt/burn the dried locker liquid and free the bolt.
 

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I think the scenario can be argued is when chain guides disintegrate and chains start slapping around, potentially moving enough to either stretch out in time from all the banging around, or simply jump the tooth or two.
 
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