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2006-2009 Range Rover MkIII / L322
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Discussion Starter #1
I have a theory I need some help with from other L322 drivers. Two questions:
1. Do you normally brake hard or "late" as you approach stop signs/lights or do you start braking early and keep even pressure up to the stop
2. Have you ever had the transmission thump when you accelerate from a stop or near stop, particularly a "rolling stop".
 

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Very open ended question.

Alot of folks think they are AJ Foyt and race every where and then complain at short brake pad life and brake dust. These drivers usually have more repairs due to the stresses of jack rabbit starts and cramming on the brakes at the last minutes.

Then you have the laid back and reserved folks that take their time getting up to speed and coast down in speed and gently stop at red lights and stop signs. These folks get far more mileage out of brakes, much better fuel mileage economy and their rigs usually have far fewer stress related failures.

I've never had any transmission thumps or poor downshifts on any of my cars in 40 years. I also service my automatic transmissions religiously and have never subscribed to the ridiculous "sealed for life" rubbish. I am also in the second group of folks. About the only time I get in a hurry is when the diddly old farts are doing 40 in the 50 zone across our farm lands... or when the yuppies come up to block traffic so they can get pictures of flowers. I will gladly let the car stretch a bit to go around them. There are also the left lane campers in the left lane on the freeway but that rarely requires sown shifting to go around them.

Obviously a car that is driven hard and spirited will never last as long as one that is driven in a more reserved style. It's simple physics and common sense.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Thanks RRToadHall. The question is not related to general wear and tear and mileage as you pointed out that is all common sense. It is very specific to the L322 with the 6hp26 and it's Adaptive learn program. I've done a ton of research on the issue and seen multiple claims about "fixing" the the problem but it is far from straightforward. I've communicated directly with the engineers at ZF and the problem I've identified is definitely related to how the Adaptive Learn program learns "your" driving style and makes adjustments to shift points based on it's data. I'm trying to correlate driving style to the results of the "Learn" program. If driving style is not relevant why did they spend so much engineering effort in building software that adjusts things based on it? I also noticed part of the "Learn" reset procedure involved hard braking over and over and I think it may be relevant if your "normal" driving routine does not involve heavy braking..
 

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heavy braking is a once or twice a year kind of think for me... usually gabbing and not see a poorly place stop sign or about to nail one of the deer in the area.
Adaptive reset is really only for after replacing something rather significant in the tranny... solenoids, valve body... etc. So I have read. Only thing I have noticed when driving different L322s is that in Seattle and the Bay area when I drive someone else's the shift points are higher and held longer. In Phoenix driving a buddy's the shift points were like mine, earlier and like butter. I would imagine if you drive on hills for the learning period it would equate your driving with hard pulling, steep stops etc. It would have it's advantages. Around here and through most of the phoenix, Palm Springs area there are very few hills in daily driving thus you can get away early smooth shift due to very little strain on the flat roads.

I would imagine in your neck of the woods you are all over hills and varied terrain... Have you actually done a reset or just looking into it for an issue?
 

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1995-2002 Range Rover MkIII / L322
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I have done the adaption reset on 3 of my own cars over the last couple of years with mixed results. This link refers to two of them. http://www.rangerovers.net/forum/6-range-rover-mark-iii-l322/272553-zf-6hp26-harsh-shifting-solenoid-replacement.html

1. 2006 Supercharged 120000 miles. Poor shift quality. DIY flushed the oil and changed the filter which improved the shifts but still not 100%. So I reset the adaptions which made the car almost undriveable due to the harsh shifting between some gears and RPM flaring between others. A set of new solenoids cured everything.

2. 2006 Normally Aspirated 75000 miles. Shift quality ok but not perfect. DIY flushed the oil and changed the filter which had very little effect. So did a gearbox software update and reset adaptions which had a huge negative impact on shift quality similar to the first case above. Again a set of new solenoids cured it 100%.

3. 2008 Supercharged 120000 miles. A leaking oil cooler connection dumped a whole lot of oil in quite a short time so after replacing the cooler I drained the remainder and refilled with the correct oil. The shift quality was never quite the same after that which I assume was due to the gearbox adapting to the shortage of oil before I realised what was happening. So I did an adaption reset and that fixed the shift quality 100%.

So be aware that resetting adaptions is very hit and miss depending on the degree of wear in the gearbox which is not necessarily reflected by the mileage. As mentioned in the previous couple of posts it depends on how the car has been treated and driven during its life. I have read on other vehicle forums that use the similar gearbox that reset should only be done as a last resort and as with my case be prepared to have to change parts should it not fix the problem.

I did try the recommended re-learn procedure on the 2006 SC car which had zero effect but I think it was too far gone and out of spec to do much.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Well this was not the intent of the thread but I'll clarify a bit. I have only ONE symptom and only one. The transmission does not downshift from 2-1 before stopping when in Drive. If you then accelerate before it does, the shift into first sometimes comes with the throttle already on causing a clunk when it engages. As stated many people have eliminated the problem with many different solutions, all of which are obviously not right. The main clue is all shifting is done with solenoids which need an electrical signal to operate. If you manually shift the trans is still sends a signal to the solenoid to shift but it does it when YOU command it. In my case I can manually shift while slowing and it shifts immediately from 2nd to first and you cannot make it "clunk" under any circumstances once it has actually gone into 1st. What this means is the automatic program is not downshifting from 2-1 everytime before you stop at say 10mph like it should, it is waiting too long. I had a new valve body with all solenoids installed for a solenoid failure and the 2-1 downshift was there every time and noticeable with NO CLUNK for the next 5 months then slowly it shifted later and later until now sometimes it does not grab 1st until after stopping and you feel it drop in. Im certain my valve body did not "wear out" in 5 months and as before the transmission works perfectly other than the late downshift crap when I let the computer decide when to shift. I live in the city and drive freeways and city streets, no excessive hills that require lots of braking etc.

The purpose of asking about driving style is to help diagnose this specific problem and nothing else.
 

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1995-2002 Range Rover MkIII / L322
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I realise that I over did my post but my issues were relevant to the initial post and I should have included more symptoms. Both of the first two vehicles suffered from the 2-1 hard shift as you have described and were cured immediately by replacing the solenoids. So this points to them being the problem although it is possible that the fitting of new solenoids is masking another problem. My understanding is that the solenoids modulate which means that they are not simply on/off as with most solenoid applications.

So I guess there could be two issues. Either the solenoids stop modulating correctly due to wear or some other mechanical problem or the electrical signal is changing or not adapting sufficiently to compensate for wear in the solenoid or other mechanical components.

Have you had the transmission software updated at any stage?
 

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Gadzooks, your braking style has little if anything to do with this save for not coming to a complete stop to give the tranny a chance to drop to first gear. However the transmission should easily be able to handle that. This should have been pointed out in your opening post as your concern. Ghur is dead on, you most likely have a worn or sticking solenoid. They are simple to replace. AB now has full service kits with new metal pan, filter, proper oil and sleeve. Phil has posted details previously as to which solenoid does what. I also vaguely remember a post about rubber bumpers on pistons being an issue for harsh down shift but can't find it now. 3:30 is not the time to be hunting for posts. :lol:
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Yeah as stated, I had ALL solenoids replaced with new along with a brand new valve body and the symptom went away for 5 months. the program downshifted well before stopping every time. I don't know what mechanical issue could possibly exist that is not there when the shift command comes from the manual electronic shift but is there when the programmed electronic shift signal comes. If there is "wear" or a leaky seal or a bad solenoid, then sending a signal to shift manually will not cure ANY of those things so how is it shifting perfectly when operated in that mode? If a no throttle, on the brakes downshift point is set for 10 mph for example the program should downshift EVERY time at 10 mph regardless if you ultimately stop or not.

PS New filter and fluid was replaced with the valve body/solenoid job and other than this one issue the box works perfectly.
 

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I caught that all of that has been replaced, but if the symptoms are back you could still have a faulty solenoid, chafed wire or even a loose connection at that solenoid. Hopefully Phil will chime in about the bumpers and any other possibilities.
 

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Yes, my 06 will shift hard, or feel like it is slipping and then jump back into gear if you try to do a rolling stop and then accelerate at any moderate rate. Its almost like you catch the transmission shifting between 2nd and 1st and it engages harshly as soon as you hit the gas. Once you're down to almost stopped you might as well stop all the way so it doesn't do it.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Mark C you have the same issue, your trans is not downshifting from 2nd to 1st until after you have stopped. A properly working transmission will always shift back to first gear by 10-15 mph. Try this: Pull the shifter to the left into sport mode then pull it back again to downshift at 15 mph. You should feel it shift down to 1st while still moving. You should then be able to hit the gas whether you come to a complete stop or not with NO clunking into or harshness. In the meantime, don't roll through stops and hit the gas. Always come to a complete stop and wait to feel the "bump" of the trans shifting into first before taking off again. Failure to do so can seriously damage the transmission. You can also shift manually everytime you come to a stop as described but it's a pain in the butt to remember. I was told by the Stealership my transmission was complete junk and needed a new one for $10k. That was 20k miles ago and the transission shop that changed the fluid and valve body said it looked exceptional inside.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
I caught that all of that has been replaced, but if the symptoms are back you could still have a faulty solenoid, chafed wire or even a loose connection at that solenoid. Hopefully Phil will chime in about the bumpers and any other possibilities.
I seriously doubt if I had a faulty solenoid, chafed wire or loose connection that shifting it manually would fix that only to have it return every time the automatic "program" shifts it.
 

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Well with bits, pieces and tid bits of information filtering in we can only take stabs until you cough up the entire picture. This entire thread has been full of hints, side steps and playing 20 questions. If you had posted the entire picture of your issue, what you had done thus far and what your "theory" is this thread most likely would be solved by now.

Good luck, I will step out before another round of "Oh yea" information spills forth. :doh:
 

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Discussion Starter #15
OK thanks anyway but I was trying to avoid lengthy discussions about an unresolved and very common issue that had already been beaten to death on other threads, by asking two simple questions. I have a well reasoned theory that needed some data to analyze but in trying to help it immediately turned into a full blown attempt at diagnosing other things. I understand the intent here by everyone is to help and that's what makes the forum so useful. My attempt to keep the discussion as simple as possible clearly didn't work out but I do appreciate everyone's input and intent.
 

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I think I see where you are going with this. Do you suspect that your current harsh shift problems are the result of the gearbox learning your driving style/brake usage since the valve body/solenoid change and perhaps getting it wrong or over compensating?

If that is the case then an adaption clear will quite likely solve the issue. Have you tried it yet?
Have you tried the recommended harsh 2-1 shift re-learn procedure?
Did the shop that changed the valve body and solenoids clear the adaptions and ensure the latest software was installed?
Did they use the correct fluid?

The reason I ask these questions is I spend my life putting right problems caused by "experts" and perhaps the shop you used is not totally familiar with your make/model of car.

I am not trying to diagnose others things here. The most common harsh 2-1 shift problems in my experience are caused by poorly performing solenoids. It is very possible that one of yours is not working as it should in spite of it being relatively new. (my harsh 2-1 shift problems were identical to yours as was my way of avoiding the thump. Plus I found a couple of other things that helped as well)
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Hi Ghur, Let me be clear, the 2-1 shift is NOT harsh, it just doesn't take place every time before the car stops. It is a timing issue and it only occurs when the car is in drive and the program is determining that shift point. The shop that did the valve body and solenoid swap was not able to clear adaptations or do a re-learn, they did use the correct fluid and when delivered the 2-1 shift could be felt at 10-15 mph every time. Only after 5 months of driving did the 2-1 shift timing change lower and lower until sometimes it shifts AFTER stopping. I have tried the 2-1 shift re-learn but it had no affect. My guess is it did not take or the procedure is invalid for my mechtronic model? I am convinced that he "learn" program has made changes based on driving style that have caused this shift timing issue. I started the post to try and correlate braking habits to those that have had this issue but that's clearly not going to happen. A year and a half ago, I took it to the local RR Dealer asking to re-flash the mechtronic and they refused insisting I needed a complete new trans. When the independent shop replaced the valve body and asked the RR Dealer to flash the new mechtronic they refused them as well since they had previously diagnosed it. The independent shop re-installed my original mechtronic module with the new valve body and solenoids and as mentioned it worked perfectly after that. So no, I'm pretty sure the "latest" software is not installed but there seems to be no way to get that done actually.
 

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Ok this is making more sense now. I know that it is not the 2-1 shift that is harsh - it is the sudden change into 1st if you start to accelerate prior to 1st gear engaging that creates the apparent harshness. Most people use the term harsh shift because they dont really understand what is happening. The examples that I used in my previous posts are exactly what we are discussing and like you I did months of research and trying different things to try and reduce the effects. I have also experienced this 2-1 problem with my other cars over the years. Disco 3/LR3 V8. BMW E65. Jaguar S Type all with the ZF 6HP26 gearbox. The D3 was cured with a transmission fluid flush, The BMW engine blew up before I solved the issue and the Jag actually improved unitl it was barely noticeable.

Its unfortunate that your indie shop did not do the adaption reset and that may be playing a role in what you are now experiencing. It is possible that after having the work done, the gearbox software was applying the original adaptions to the newly repaired gearbox but as it was still within spec there was no unusual behaviour. But as things have settled down the adaptions have now gone out of the window causing this 2-1 snag. But maybe not. Just thinking out aloud here.

I cant understand why the dealer were being awkward regarding the reset and software undate. Its the simplest thing in the world to do using the SDD software - the hardest part is waiting for the program to load as it is very slow. Any major work done to a transmission should include a reset as a matter of course. I have also spent an unhealthy amount of time on other make forums regarding these gearboxes and there are many reports of software updates curing this issue.

So I do think that your driving style may have influenced what you are experiencing but for the wrong reasons ie. lack of adaption rest. Personally I think you should start with a level playing field and try to get a reset done to see what happens. Perhaps in 6 months the problem will appear again but who knows. Whats is the mileage on your car as a matter of interest? A high mileage may have influenced the dealer in not wanting to mess with things.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Hi Ghur, The dealership just wants to sell a new transmission and has no interest in solving problems with them. I got the car with 70K on it and the problem was there already. I've put about 10k on it since the new valve body/solenoids etc. You are probably right about the reset but I don't know any place that will have newer software. I'm not even sure there has been a code update to address this sliding shift point issue. I had an independent shop re-flash it when I first bought the car and it shifted harsh for a couple hours then settled down and went right back to the late downshift though so I question whether their re-flash didn't just put it back to original 2006 factory programming. This is the problem with paying independent shops. They all say they have the latest updates but I can't confirm it's any later than the code that's in there now and these procedures are not cheap.
 

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My car has done this for 100,000 miles with absolutely zero change. I tested it in sport mode manually shifting and all gears respond quickly. I chalked it up to the computer improperly managing downshifts depending on stopping conditions (it doesn't happen all the time) my fix was to ignore it because it doesn't seem to be an issue.
 
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