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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi folks. I've had a Hemi Jeep Grand Cherokee for ages and the wife tells me it's time to replace it. My two main gripes were terrible gas mileage (11-12) and a somewhat short rear cargo height. The Range Rover Sport in a diesel seems like a candidate to consider as a replacement.

I've now driven two of them, both new 2016 diesels. Both have a very different off-the-line starting behavior than I'm used to from the Hemi. Basically, they lag off the line. If I stomp the pedal there's a 1-and-a-half count delay before it gets moving. Then there's a sudden push as the boost kicks in. I had a turbo Supra back in the 80's, so I'm pretty familiar with turbo boost. Likewise the wife's Mini Cooper S has a turbo (albeit with a manual and that's a different animal). This lag was present (and the same) regardless of the Auto start/stop setting.

Before I just attribute it to diesel and turbo, I had a loaner Mercedes GL300d out overnight and it had none of that same 'dead off the line' kind of lag. It did, of course, have the same kind of turbo spooling delay and rush of torque. That and an almost criminally difficult to use nav/screen system. Ugh, hated it... on so many levels. But my point is not all turbo diesels do this. Because on another night I had a Jeep CRD and it likewise wasn't dead off the line.

I took a full size Range Rover out for a test and while it was less, it was still more pokey off the line than I'd like.

Is this normal? Or is there some other mode that would help reduce it?

If it's normal (and that's fine, I'm not here to bad mouth anything) then what's the mileage like with the gas V6?

Assuming the worst-case scenario of driving like you're fleeing a crime scene. I've been a bad driver for far too long and it's not looking like I'm going to reform anytime soon. It's not the cost of the fuel that bothers me. It's the combination of bad mileage (due to having a lead foot), small tank capacity and scheduling. I'm typically always late, the tank is empty and where I need to go is directly opposite the direction of the nearest gas station. Thus improving my mileage would be nice, if just to help prop up my bad driving habits.

Any real world advice/observations here on the diesel lag or V6 gas consumption? And, again, don't get me wrong, if that's normal and the gas would be OK then I'll consider that instead.
 

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For the lag in the diesel it really is not that terrible. I mean if you are powering off the line always then I guess it would matter. The V6 diesel is a second slow to pull from the line but after that it just pulls. Overall the mileage is amazing for a vehicle this size. In my other post I mentioned the did a trip from NYC to VA Bristol with one tank. 612 mile trip one way.
 

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Agree w above posts- you adjust to the lag quickly and learn how to compensate - I was deciding between the gas v6 and the td6 and drove both a few times - in my mind no question the diesel is a much better (and fun) ride. I often will get 600 miles from a tank of gas and am averaging 28 mpg after 8000 miles of suburban/county roads in NJ.


2016 RRS HSE TD6
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
No argument that the diesel isn't fun, the torque and turbo boost provide a very nice and confident amount of acceleration when already rolling. And from my limited overnight experience of just under 50 miles the trip computer showed remarkably better mileage than anything I'd ever gotten out of the gas Hemi. Which, in it's CRD diesel trim, surprisingly did not turn in kinds of numbers. It would appear the RRSd (and what is the right acronym/abbreviation to call it?) really does deliver great results with the diesel. Just that off-the-line lag, I'm not sure it's right for me.


Meanwhile a test drive in a (gas) Cayenne and my wife preferred that over the Sport. For comfort, curiously enough.
 

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I have the SDV8, which I realize is not an engine available in the US however there is a slight hesitation off the line probably due to the throttle settings. These vehicles are generally set for comfort as default.

If I want to take off quickly, putting the car in Dynamic mode and Sport mode quickens the throttle response and may assist you in your desire for a quicker take off. You will need a car fitted with the Dynamic mode as depending upon your model of choice it is not always standard.
 

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While there is a bit of a lag if you accelerate from a total stop, it is no where near the 1.5 count delay you claim. it is very brief. The torque kicks in quickly and there is no discernible lag if you accelerate while underway. The TD6 RRS is not a sports car. It is a 3 ton SUV. I have owned several RRS models with gas engines and the TD6 is superior in virtually every respect, other than the slight lag when accelerating quickly from a complete stop. After 7,000 miles, I am averaging almost 30 miles a gallon and going 550-600 miles between fill-ups. My fuel costs have been cut in half. There are a few other minor things that frustrate me (like the stop/start) but overall I would highly recommend the TD6.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Don't get me wrong, I'm not hear to bad mouth the Sport. It indeed an excellent vehicle in nearly every respect.

Agreed, when already underway it's not an issue at all. It's quite confident at lane change and passing acceleration.

Having spent the past 10 years driving a Hemi, this thing has considerable lag by comparison. Expecting that kind of throttle response is part of how I like to drive. Which, admittedly, is why my gas consumption is so miserable.

A Mercedes GL300d does not have anywhere near as much as the RRS. A Jeep Grand Cherokee has less than the RRS. A Cayenne diesel had the least lag, almost none (which is kind of moot as you can't purchase one right now).

Curiously, I don't mind start/stop. I did not have it active when test driving. But for a lot of city driving I could see it being acceptable. I 'get' why it's useful to avoid leaving the engine idling. I could see leaving it active more often than not. I'm not always driving like a madman.

I got into another Sport this past weekend, along with a full size Range Rover. Interesting, I found the driver seat space more generous in the Sport. I did not know to check for a Dynamic or Sport kind of mode, and will look for that the next time I'm at the dealer.

Here's the test. Sit at a full stop, auto-start disabled, engine idling. Now MASH the pedal. For anyone musically inclined, I'd say there's about a 1 and an eighth note in 4/4 time delay before the Sport gets moving. But then at about the 2 beat the turbo kicks in and acceleration gets way out of hand. It's a dead pedal at the start and then dumps in WAY too much power.

Yes, it would certainly be something that could be "gotten used to". At this price point I'm not inclined to go along with that kind of thinking. Yes, getting away from mashing the pedal would certainly be a good idea. Again, at this point in time I'm uncertain I'd be willing to make that change. I'm well aware my preference may not be a reasonable demand to put upon this vehicle.

I came here asking if this kind of lag is typical for this kind of setup. Or if there was something wrong with the one I had on an overnight loan. Now that I've read posts here AND tested two other examples, I'm better informed. I'm still undecided. Right now if I could get a new diesel Cayenne I'd be in it. But since that's not happening I'm still trying to keep the Sport in consideration.
 

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Dear lourde man, it;s a diesel. No diesel has, or ever will have the same take off as a V8. I have logged alot of miles in a 405 diesel and driven two 494 diesels now. I can tell you there is no throttle lag in any of them. I think you will find it is your perception and unwarranted comparison of dissimilar technologies that is misleading you.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Dear lourde man, it;s a diesel. No diesel has, or ever will have the same take off as a V8. I have logged alot of miles in a 405 diesel and driven two 494 diesels now. I can tell you there is no throttle lag in any of them. I think you will find it is your perception and unwarranted comparison of dissimilar technologies that is misleading you.
Well, I expected there to be some. As I've had boats with diesels, I am familiar with how this kind of combustion can perform. That said, however, other SUV-class vehicles with diesels being sold new on the road today are presenting less throttle lag from a dead stop.

So, pardon me for asking if the Sport is atypical in comparison. I tried driving one, was a bit concerned, and came here to inquire further. Meanwhile I've only gone out of my way and since tried TWO MORE, different, Range Rovers (a Sport and a full-size) and they all presented the same way. Clearly some folks are prepared to live with that, which is fine. These vehicles offer quite a lot of other very nice features, remarkable mileage being but one. I'm still on the fence as, truly, they really are quite nice. Nice enough that I'm going to head back to the dealer tomorrow to give the gas powered ones a go.
 

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Dear lourde man, it;s a diesel. No diesel has, or ever will have the same take off as a V8. I have logged alot of miles in a 405 diesel and driven two 494 diesels now. I can tell you there is no throttle lag in any of them. I think you will find it is your perception and unwarranted comparison of dissimilar technologies that is misleading you.
Well, I expected there to be some. As I've had boats with diesels, I am familiar with how this kind of combustion can perform. That said, however, other SUV-class vehicles with diesels being sold new on the road today are presenting less throttle lag from a dead stop.

So, pardon me for asking if the Sport is atypical in comparison. I tried driving one, was a bit concerned, and came here to inquire further. Meanwhile I've only gone out of my way and since tried TWO MORE, different, Range Rovers (a Sport and a full-size) and they all presented the same way. Clearly some folks are prepared to live with that, which is fine. These vehicles offer quite a lot of other very nice features, remarkable mileage being but one. I'm still on the fence as, truly, they really are quite nice. Nice enough that I'm going to head back to the dealer tomorrow to give the gas powered ones a go.

In my opinion I believe in the RRS and RR you should stick to the gas models. Also since you like mashing the pedal often I would recommend the 5.0 V8 supercharged. I mean if you were worried about the gas consumption issue you wouldnt be flooring your current car. And the V8 will move big time!

Anyways just my 2 cents...
 

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This is an from a recent Car and Driver article of the 2016 RRS diesel...

"How Does It Drive?
Plentiful torque at low engine speeds makes the Td6 feel more powerful than the gas V6. Land Rover's stated 0-60-mph time of 7.1 seconds puts it a couple tenths slower than the gas V6, so the diesel does eventually run out of steam at higher engine speeds."
 

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Recently leased the RRS SE TD6. I also owned a 2011 x5 diesel from 2011-2013. Performance is very comparable. I am on my first tank of gas after 500 miles around town - no long range trips.

We have recently also owned Audi a3 cab, bmw 5 series, infiniti g37, and bmw 328xi. This truck is clearly not in the same handling class of any type of sports sedan or the x5D. However, it does have a super nice ride, very good pickup off the line, and the price was right.

Land vehicle Vehicle Car Sport utility vehicle Range rover
 

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I am a 2016 RRS diesel owner (11.500 miles) and I also own a 2005 Dodge Cummins pickup (165,000 miles). Here are my thought son this topic based on my experience with these two vehicles:

While both have drive by wire systems, after getting used to my Dodge for 10 years the RRS was a hard learning curve. Spooling up the Cummins 5.9 liters is slow to start before it builds full boost, as is common in all diesels, but there is at least some noticeable boost even right off idle allowing the pickup to start moving forward. In the RRS for a split second after you depress the throttle there is no perceptible boost nor movement of the vehicle, followed by a huge surge forward soon after.

On such a small displacement diesel I just can't believe this is natural and have come to the personal conclusion that the LR engineers have built some type of timing ramp up into the throttle control system that causes this to happen. I say this because during a normal gradual application of throttle it isn't too unbearable, but if you need to pull into Houston traffic from a side road and mash the throttle it can be a bit of a nail-biter when there is that split second lag before ANYTHING happens.

There are throttle pedal tuner boxes for domestic diesels that help make the pedals more responsive, and I would like to hope that whoever comes out with a US spec TD6 diesel tuner integrates that type of adjustment this into their system to overcome this seemingly unnatural hesitation.
 

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Throttle tuner boxes are a long running joke. All they do is compress the signal sweep from your throttle sensor so you don;t have to move your foot as much. They do absolutely nothing for performance or perceived lag.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
In the RRS for a split second after you depress the throttle there is no perceptible boost nor movement of the vehicle, followed by a huge surge forward soon after.

On such a small displacement diesel I just can't believe this is natural and have come to the personal conclusion that the LR engineers have built some type of timing ramp up into the throttle control system that causes this to happen. I say this because during a normal gradual application of throttle it isn't too unbearable, but if you need to pull into Houston traffic from a side road and mash the throttle it can be a bit of a nail-biter when there is that split second lag before ANYTHING happens.
That's EXACTLY the scenario I've encountered. Likewise, I have to think there's something deliberate in the way it was engineered. No doubt it goes a long way to stifle excessive fuel consumption, but as you point out, that nail-biter delay is problematic. It's enough that I'm really uncertain that the TD6 would be suitable for me.
 

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You absolutely need to try the different "performance" ie throttle modes. Nowadays it can make that big of a difference. My wife's Infiniti QX60 has a huge dead zone and will actually fight your foot in econ mode. Then normal mode is linear and when you are used to econ it's like flooring it everywhere you go.

If instant torque is what fits your driving style a turbo will never fit the bill. You will be much happier with a Supercharger.
 

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BTW do not rely on the in car mileage numbers unless you have confirmed their accuracy. My Evoque was 15-20% generous in its calculations. Telling someone you went from A to B on 1 tank is meaningless unless you tell us the mileage and gallons it took to refill__Then we could do an accurate calculation.
While the trip computer on my 2011 RRS HSE generally overstated average fuel consumption by 10%, the trip computer on my 2016 RRS TD6 seems to be much more accurate. On my last fill-up, the trip computer showed average MPG of 30.6. The actual numbers were 558 miles on 18.8 gallons or 29.7 MPG, only a 3% difference.

For me, the real benefit of the TD6, apart from the better torque and off-road capability, is the dramatically increased range between refueling stops and the reduced cost of fuel. I had to refuel my 2011 RRS twice a week, which required me to drive 8 miles out of the way because I live in a rural area. I fill up my TD6 about once every 10 days, and can usually fill-up when I am near a gas station so I don't have to make a special trip. Because diesel fuel costs 45 cents less per gallon than premium gasoline, my overall fuel costs have dropped by 50% or about $1,300 per year at current prices.

Here are the numbers:

2011 RRS HSE 18 MPG 18,000 miles/18=1,000 gallons @ $2.65 a gallon = $2,650

2016 RRS TD6 30 MPG 18,000 miles/30=600 gallons @ $2.20 a gallon = $1,320

There are some increased expenses associated with the diesel engine, such as the cost of the DEF fill-ups which, even if you do it yourself, total about $100 every 10,000 miles if you use the LR blessed formulation. However, given the other benefits of the diesel engine, I can live with the cost and inconvenience of the DEF refills.

The diesel engine is not for everyone, which is why LR only expects to sell 20% of its RRSs with the TD6 engine. However, in my opinion, anyone in the market for non-V8 RRS should at least drive one before buying the gasoline V6 RRS. I was not planning to go with the diesel engine until I drove one off road at the LR driving school. The off-road performance alone (and my instructor's glowing recommendation) caused me to seriously consider the diesel. After fully investigating (and test driving) the diesel on the road, the decision for me was a no brainer. However, I use my RRS as a truck and a daily driver, not a sports car. Those on this board who own or aspire to own the SVR (or even a standard V8 SC RRS) would not like the diesel. It is simply too slow off the line and there is some initial turbo lag. That's fine. The SVR and the TD6 are two completely different vehicles that are designed for completely different uses. However, in my opinion, the V6 HSE is inferior in various respects to the TD6.
 

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an observation. I am new to this forum having sold a 2013 VW Touareg Diesel for my 2016 RR Sport Diesel. I loved my VW and wanted something more without sacrificing what I liked, smooth, torque, mileage and quiet. I got all of those in spades with the RR. Performance is equal or better than my Treg. The RR is quieter and from my view better in the mid range acceleration. For me the 30 to 70 acceleration times are more important than the boy racer off the line stuff. I can keep up or better any SUV in this class. I am very happy with this ride. As for mileage, the trip computer is showing 29.8 after half tank. If that is even close it will beat my VW by 4mpg
 
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