[RRPhil]

I’ve seen this question raised a few times on the forum, usually when someone is faced with a ridiculous bill for a new/re-manufactured ZF 5HP24 gearbox for an ’02-’05 petrol L322 and they’ve seen a Jaguar or BMW one up for sale much cheaper.

Unfortunately the answer is NO.

Components like the bellhousing & rear cover are different for L322 but they’re unlikely to have been damaged and could be swapped over onto the replacement transmission. However, there’s a fundamental difference between the Range Rover variant and all the other 5HP24s (there are 27 different versions in total) and that’s the rear epicyclic planet carrier/output shaft & the corresponding park lock/speed sensor gear. These parts are totally unique to the Range Rover (even different to the BMW X5) because of the 2-speed NVG 225 transfer box.

As I’m currently rebuilding a transmission for one of this forum’s members I’ve taken the opportunity to take a couple of photos to illustrate the difference between these components.

Phil

 

[worknfun2]

Re: Can I replace my ’02-’05 V8 gearbox with one from a Jag/BMW?

As always very helpful info RRphil. Would the same differences hold for 2006 RR HSE (4.4L Jag engine)?

Mine is throwing P0741 "Torque Convertor Clutch Solenoid Circuit Performance OR Stuck Off". It has 135K mile...time to consider TC and Transmission replacements. Any pointers would be appreciated as I am shopping around.

BTW, the only time "Transmission Fault" appears is when there is stress on the transmission for aggressive acceleration at speeds over 50 mph (80 km). Aggressive acceleration from stand still causes brief shuddering before responding. The rig is very responsive, otherwise.

 

[RRPhil]

Re: Can I replace my ’02-’05 V8 gearbox with one from a Jag/BMW?

Well the situation isn’t quite so bad with the 6HP26 transmission because the same transmission & transfer box combination are also used in the Range Rover Sport and LR3 & LR4 (Discovery 3 & 4) so replacement transmissions are much more plentiful (& therefore cheaper).

Having said that, it would be a great shame to replace your transmission without trying a simple EDS6 solenoid swap first.

Of course the fault could lie with the torque converter itself (the ECU is reporting the fact that, even though it is being signalled to do so, the torque converter lock-up clutch is failing to engage) but surely you have to give a replacement solenoid a shot first! So how handy are you with a set of spanners?

Phil

 

[worknfun2]

Re: Can I replace my ’02-’05 V8 gearbox with one from a Jag/BMW?

I am pretty handy around the rig...I reckon Ive done several maintenance items like Cleaning MAF sensor and throttle body, replacing plugs, filters, oils & fluids (motor, transfer box, differential units, brake fluid flush). I am on my second drain and fill of transmission fluid and ready to do the final flush and replace pan/filter/casket next week.

I knew this RR was a project since it was running rough with little mojo, when I purchased it. It was throwing plethora of errors and running very poorly. To my surprise, ALL (except for P0741) of the codes/errors were gone when I replaced the aging and under-powered battery (650 CCA) with one from the dealer (850 CCA).

Please provide me with information I can use to do the EDS6 Soleniod swap.

Cheers,
Sam

 

[RRPhil]

Re: Can I replace my ’02-’05 V8 gearbox with one from a Jag/BMW?

Sam,

You may want to begin by downloading the workshop manual for 2006-onward models, if you don't already have it :
http://www.fullfatrr.com/forum/topic17623.html

There’s also some information here : http://www.rangerovers.net/forum/6-range-rover-mark-iii-l322/44034-zf-6hp26-teardown.html

I can also provide you with more detailed instructions if needed.


As I see it, you have three options :

1. Swap two of your three ‘yellow cap’ solenoids around (EDS6 being one of them of course ) and see if the problem moves with it. Adv – least cost, no waiting. Disadv – two solenoids to move, plus they’ll have to recalibrate themselves

2. If you’d be willing to fund the shipping costs I could send you a second-hand solenoid to try. If it makes no difference, just return it. If it fixes the problem, you keep it and PayPal me $25 or whatever. Adv – low cost & risk. Disadv – you’ll have to wait for the thing to arrive from the UK and I’m about to go on holiday for a week

3. Buy a new solenoid (the ZF part number is 0501 213 960) from someone like The CTSC http://www.thectsc.com/index.php?p=product&id=165&parent=52 or Cobra Transmission http://cobratransmission.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=3012030 Adv – brand new part sourced from the US. Disadv – Risky; an expensive way to find that the problem is not caused by the solenoid ($100+)!

It’s probably worth mentioning that one of the advantages to ZF of having the transmission ECU as part of the Mechatronic unit, along with the valve block, is that all the solenoids can be calibrated to the actual unit at the factory. By replacing the solenoids you’re upsetting the original settings and the transmission will therefore have to modify its adaptions for the new solenoid. You should really, therefore, get the transmission adaptions cleared at the start of the process, which would require a trip to the dealers (though you could also get the latest ECU software update at the same time)

Phil

 

[worknfun2]

Re: Can I replace my ’02-’05 V8 gearbox with one from a Jag/BMW?

Phil,

You are truly a great asset to this forum. Thank you for the reply.

I have no issue funding the postage for the used part. I am downloading the workshop manual as we "speak" to see if I am comfortable doing the work myself. Will let you know

What is the process of self recalibration in the context of your statement " Disadv – two solenoids to move, plus they’ll have to recalibrate themselves".

Regards,
Sam

 

[worknfun2]

Re: Can I replace my ’02-’05 V8 gearbox with one from a Jag/BMW?

Howdy Phil,

I would very much like swap the TC solenoid as you recommended. I will do the solenoid swap when changing the pan/filter/casket.

Please send me the used solenoid and let me know how to send you the postage fees. I tried to send you a PM with my address, but was declined.

Take care and have a great holiday.
Sam

 

[RRPhil]

Re: Can I replace my ’02-’05 V8 gearbox with one from a Jag/BMW?

Thanks Sam,

Yes, unfortunately I have to have my PMs turned off otherwise I get inundated with queries. I’m setting off to the airport soon so I’m afraid that I won’t get the opportunity to send you the solenoid before I leave. I’m back next Sunday (21[SUP]st[/SUP]) so I’ll turn my PMs back on then (if you can wait until then?) so that you can send me the shipping address.

Phil

 

[RRPhil]

Re: Can I replace my ’02-’05 V8 gearbox with one from a Jag/BMW?

Hi Phil

I live in Bolton just down the road from you am having problems with my ZF Auto 5 speed 2002 are you still repairing the ZF auto box's

Ta Dale

Hi Dale,

Yes, I’m more than happy to repair 5HP24s for forum members but, as I’m just a keen amateur fixing them in my garage at home, unfortunately I don’t have the facility to get the transmission out & back into the vehicle.

However, if you can arrange to get the transmission out and transport it over to Leyland (work) or Blackburn (home), I’d be happy to strip & repair it for you. The only problem might be that it takes me 3 to 4 weeks to turn one around (a day to strip it, a day to rebuild it and the rest to clean, check & measure each of the 666 components – it’s a hobby `8)) so you’d need some alternative transport.

What seems to be the problem with it?

Phil

 

[fosterelli]

Re: Can I replace my ’02-’05 V8 gearbox with one from a Jag/BMW?

Sometimes I wish I lived in the UK, just to be close enough to have a beer with Phil. He's the Chuck Norris of rangerovers.net.

 

[RRPhil]

Re: Can I replace my ’02-’05 V8 gearbox with one from a Jag/BMW?

Thanks Sam,

Yes, unfortunately I have to have my PMs turned off otherwise I get inundated with queries. I’m setting off to the airport soon so I’m afraid that I won’t get the opportunity to send you the solenoid before I leave. I’m back next Sunday (21[SUP]st[/SUP]) so I’ll turn my PMs back on then (if you can wait until then?) so that you can send me the shipping address.

Phil

Sam,

I'm now back from holiday and I've turned my Private Messaging back on.

Phil

 

[RRPhil]

Re: Can I replace my ’02-’05 V8 gearbox with one from a Jag/BMW?

4.5 litres came out but they could only get 3.5 litres back in

Did they definitely have the engine running when they set the fluid level? This is essential to ensure that the torque converter, oil cooler & valve block hydraulic circuits have not drained back into the sump. If the engine wasn't running then your transmission is underfilled.

Can I ask how confident you are that it's definitely the 3-2 rollout shift that you're feeling rather than a 2-1 shift?

Phil

 

[RRPhil]

Re: Can I replace my ’02-’05 V8 gearbox with one from a Jag/BMW?

Dale,

Unfortunately I’m not familiar with BMW fault codes, though your ‘060 Selector Lever Position’ fault could, I guess, relate to the inhibitor switch. Your switch will be the same as the Range Rover one, except for the length of its wiring harness (as your connector will be mounted under the transmission, closer to the switch, rather than on top of the bellhousing). There’s some information on checking its function here :

http://www.rangerovers.net/forum/6-range-rover-mark-iii-l322/23342-misc-transmission-errors-issues-5.html#post253892

(The ticks in the table show where continuity should be measured between the +ve pin and the remaining pins in each selector position)

In fact, it’s probably worth checking the condition of the pins in the connector too as it’s so exposed to the elements, just in case you have a dodgy connection?

It’s always worth repeating that the number one rule when it comes to the TRANS FAILSAFE PROG message is to check that the battery & its charging circuit are up to scratch before turning attention to the transmission.

The reason I asked about the 2-1 downshift is that we’ve seen a few reports about it before on the 5HP24 (not to be confused with the 6-speed gearbox where it’s the most commonly reported problem with the 6HP26, by far). With the 5HP24 the consensus seems to be that it’s related to high fluid temperature. My concern is that I’ll get your transmission apart and not find anything significantly amiss. As the seal & gasket kit, plus the three steel feed pipes, filter & B/C-clutch bearing cost around £230 (i.e. the minimum cost of a complete rebuild) that’s clearly an expensive way to find out that your transmission is fine – plus the hassle of getting it out and back in to the vehicle.

As a first step, would it be worth me checking & rebuilding just your valve block? This can be removed without removing the transmission from the vehicle and would ‘only’ take me around 4 days to complete. Cost would be around £50 i.e. £40 for return postage (unless you want to drop off & collect?) + £10 for a new plate gasket & to cover the cost of cleaning materials.

Phil

 

[RRPhil]

Re: Can I replace my ’02-’05 V8 gearbox with one from a Jag/BMW?

Howdy Phil,

I would very much like swap the TC solenoid as you recommended. I will do the solenoid swap when changing the pan/filter/casket.

Please send me the used solenoid and let me know how to send you the postage fees. I tried to send you a PM with my address, but was declined.

Take care and have a great holiday.
Sam

Sam,

The solenoid is now on its way. It should be with you in around 5 days time.

Phil

 

[RRPhil]

Re: Can I replace my ’02-’05 V8 gearbox with one from a Jag/BMW?

Hi Phil

What worries me about the Autobox problem is everything was fine up until the ATF Radiator blew and the car went into Failsafe Mode and then the garage under filled the box with the wrong spec Fluid, then after a couple of hundred miles they had to take it to East Lancs Transmissions in Bolton for them to drain and refill with the proper ATF and fit a new filter because the box just didn't feel right at all, the 060 code began to pop up after all of this, although the box was back to normal as far has smooth changing was concerned, this wrong fluid and lack of fluid business do you think this could have caused any permanent damage to the inner workings of the box, one chap in Preston someone suggested I ring said that since Dextron III was put into the box all the clutches would be contaminated and need to be changed, then another so called specialist said Dextron III would do no harm to the box? I work as a Taxi driver in Bolton so my vehicle is my living and although right now I can still work in it, the thumping problem is ever present and I just fear that at some point its going to go altogether?

Dale

Dale,

Clearly Dexron III is an ATF so there’s unlikely to be any short-term chemical compatibility issues with the transmission’s various components (bearings, seals, bushes, friction plates, etc.) - especially after only 200 miles - it’s more an issue relating to the friction modifier packs used in the fluid. This is obviously fundamental to the performance of the six clutch packs, but particularly so to the torque converter lock-up clutch where the fluid’s static-to-dynamic friction characteristics are especially critical due to the control of low slip speeds in its ‘continuous slip’ mode (<100rpm).

The signals provided by the engine, turbine & output speed sensors allow the transmission ECU to self-adapt throughout it’s lifetime to maintain shift times (through the modification of clutch control pressures) so the transmission does have the potential to make some allowances for changes in fluid friction characteristics, but the tolerance on this allowance will have boundaries.

I have stripped a number of 5HP24s where I drained off red fluid (i.e. Dexron) rather than LT71141 (which is honey coloured when new)

and these transmissions were in a sorry state. Unfortunately, as I don’t know the history of these transmissions (and how long the fluid had been in there), it’s difficult to be sure that the fluid was responsible for the transmission’s demise but my instinct tells me that it played its part. Certainly Dexron III was never designed as a ‘lifetime’ fluid.


I’d wondered how you managed to clock up 16k miles in only 7 months – your job would explain that! Because it’s inconvenient/costly for you to have your car off the road for any length of time I’m now thinking that it might be better if I just build you another valve block assembly to quickly swap over

continued ……

 

[RRPhil]

Re: Can I replace my ’02-’05 V8 gearbox with one from a Jag/BMW?

I have lots of spares but they tend to be Range Rover ones i.e. for the ‘032’ variant of the 5HP24

There are 27 different versions of this transmission and I would need to establish exactly which model yours was to see if I have the right parts available. I think, being an E39, yours is a ‘022’ model but I really would need you to check. The model number is stamped into a green identification plate on the LH side of the transmission at the back. It’s the number that begins ‘1058’, below the transmission’s serial number. For example the picture below shows a ‘029’ model (1058 000 029) which is from a BMW E53 (X5).

Phil

 

[RRPhil]

Re: Can I replace my ’02-’05 V8 gearbox with one from a Jag/BMW?

Oops, sorry Dale, I’ve just twigged something kind of fundamental. You said your car was an E39 525i Touring? I think that means it has the M54 engine but the 5HP24 was only used on the M62 petrol engines and the M57 diesel. I’ve been (wrongly) assuming that we were discussing the 5HP24 whereas I now realise that you must have the A5S325Z transmission rather than the A5S440Z. Unfortunately I have no experience of the 5HP19, nor do I have any spare parts, so please ignore the above.

Phil

 

[worknfun2]

Re: Can I replace my ’02-’05 V8 gearbox with one from a Jag/BMW?

Thank you very much Phil.

Looking forward to do the solenoid swap and hopefully fix the P0741 code.

Going to the dealership next week to update Transmission ECU software and clear its adaptation.

Cheers,
Sam

 

[worknfun2]

Re: Can I replace my ’02-’05 V8 gearbox with one from a Jag/BMW?

I got the solenoid. Thank you Phil.

Could you post instructions/tips on how to remove the solenoid (after the sump is removed). Looks straight forward, but wanted to make sure `8)

Here are pictures of the solenoids on my rig. I figure I need to replace the last one at the bottom....on the other side of the electric connection tab.


Cheers,
Sam

 

[RRPhil]

Re: Can I replace my ’02-’05 V8 gearbox with one from a Jag/BMW?

Hi Sam,

Glad to hear that the solenoid got there okay.

Yes the EDS6 solenoid is the one at the bottom of your first picture

Unlike with the 5-speed ‘boxes, where each solenoid has its own individual electrical connector which can be removed with the valve block in place, the Mechatronic unit for the 6HP26 has to be removed from the transmission so that the complete electrical/electronic control module can be removed.

My previous ‘teardown’ post describes the valve block removal.

Once you have the Mechatronic unit on your bench you need to undo just the six bolts that hold the black plastic electrical/electronic control module to the valve block

and then remove it (there are a couple of dowel pins too)

You’ll then see that there’s a retaining plate, which clamps all the solenoids into the valve block, that needs to be removed (9 screws) and you’ll then be able to get your EDS6 solenoid out and perform the swap.