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Discussion Starter #1
I just purchased a one of these kits for my RR. I just wanted to share what the real costs are to ship one of these to the US.
I'm not to happy about the 3% CC fee which I think is a no no by visa terms for the merchant to charge you here in the US.

> (All prices are in USD)
>
> SV320 - L322 02-05 FCO Capability $ 666.89
> Less July Summer sale of 20% $-133.38
> Shipping to Oregon by TNT $ 61.23
> Credit card surcharge of 3% $ 17.85
> overall total $ 612.59

Here is the upgrade fee I got quoted if I want to convert my FCO to a vin locked full featured version.
MP011 $936.79USD
- MP033 -$355.58
Subtotal $581.21
Admin Fee $71.40
TOTAL $652.61

Pretty steep admin fee to ship out some new software ouch! Them admins must be driving RR's

I'll let everyone know what I think of it once I get it.
 

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Discussion Starter #2
I just wanted to add if you want a full featured version its probably best to buy one from the get go.
Even with a 20% discount you pay more for an upgrade then you do for full featured version without the discount.

Another option people might want to look into is Snapon makes modules for these cars and is probably more cost competative and isn't vin locked.
I kind of rolled the dice on this one. I went against my better judgement hopefully it doesn't come back to bite me.
 

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2002-2005 Range Rover MkIII / L322
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nsxxtreme said:
I'm not to happy about the 3% CC fee which I think is a no no by visa terms for the merchant to charge you here in the US.
Regrettably, since our govt. deregulated banking, we now get those fees in Australia, too.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
I recieved my faultmate msv today. The size of the unit is about the size of an iphone.

I'm complete baffled at the reciept I recieved.
My reciept states the total cost to be $382.53
Somehow I remember paying $612 I wonder if I can tell my CC company it only cost $382.53

This $300 number also seems similiar to the cost the company wants to use when figuring your upgrade fees.
Billing practices seem questionable at best.

Once you recieve your faultmate you can not even get it working the same day you recieve it.
From there activation website.

"After the form has been submitted, it will be processed by hand by a member of our staff. This will therefore not occur instantly, typically taking up to 24 hours and can only take place sometime between Monday to Friday 07:00 to 15:00GMT, not including Cyprus Bank Holidays. Once processed, an account activation confirmation email will be sent to you at the email address you provide on the form.

Please note that it will be impossible to log in to the owners area until you recieve our confirmation email and as the owners area is the only place you can get the codes you will need to activate your equipment, it will also be impossible to use your equipment until you have been activated"

I'd like to let you know what I think of it but I guess I have to wait til Monday.
 

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nsxxtreme said:
I'm complete baffled at the reciept I recieved.
My reciept states the total cost to be $382.53
Somehow I remember paying $612
Umm, are you sure it didn't say £382.53 - that is equal to around US$612 (depending on the exchange rate on the day, e.g., today's rate would make that US$626).

If you check your credit card statement, it will tell you the foreign currency amount and the exchange rate.
 

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Hi

From what I understood from previous discussions with BBS:

That the bill included with the hardware is not for the full amount that you had to pay is done for a reason. In a lot of countries you are charged taxes over billing amount of the harware you receive. The bill for only the hardware gives you the benefits of getting to pay the extra taxes only for the hardware and you get the software tax free.

BBS is trying to save you some money where this is legally possible. Within the EU they have to charge the tax over the full amount.

Regards

Jos
 

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Jos Geuze said:
Hi

From what I understood from previous discussions with BBS:

That the bill included with the hardware is not for the full amount that you had to pay is done for a reason. In a lot of countries you are charged taxes over billing amount of the harware you receive. The bill for only the hardware gives you the benefits of getting to pay the extra taxes only for the hardware and you get the software tax free.

BBS is trying to save you some money where this is legally possible. Within the EU they have to charge the tax over the full amount.

Regards

Jos
Ahh, of course. I'd forgotten about that.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
We don't pay sales tax here. I guess what I think is screwy is that my unit with a 20% discount plus upgrade fee costs more then a full feature unit without any discount. It doesn't leave much incentive to upgrade later. I was expecting to pay something just wasn't expecting to get bent over.
 

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nsxxtreme said:
We don't pay sales tax here.
The taxes Jos refers to are import duties, etc. Many countries calculate customs duty and sales tax/GST/VAT on imported products based on the whole cost, including shipping.

BBS show only the cost of the hardware on the invoice to minimise duty and taxes for most of its customers.

I'm surprised you don't pay sales tax in your State - every other US State seems to charge it.

nsxxtreme said:
I guess what I think is screwy is that my unit with a 20% discount plus upgrade fee costs more then a full feature unit without any discount.
Please explain exactly.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Today is Monday I finally have access to there support forum. Now I must wait another day to get the codes so I can use the device I fully paid for.
So owned this device for 4 days and still cant use it. Activation process stinks!!

There are 2 states in the US that dont have a sales tax Oregon is one of them. :)

I would expect the price of an upgrade to be inline with the price of a full featured unit.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
6 days no activation codes.

It would appear if you don't praise this product your activation codes are with held.

I'm being asked if I want to return a device that has never been fully delivered.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Cornishman said:
Suprised BBS_SPY hasn't posted anything in defence :think:
Here is an email response I recieved from Colin regarding my post on this forum
"Sadly your comments seem to elicit a degree of mis understanding, mistrust
and impatience in us and our equipment that i quite firmly believe will
not be conducive to a good experience with your equipment.

Before proceeding any further therefore, I would like to offer you this
opportunity to return your equipment for a full and immediate refund."

Nothing I posted on this forum is untrue nor do I feel justified such a response.
1. I posted I wasn't happy about CC fee that we do not pay in the US. I accepted the fee doesn't mean I need to be happy about it.
2. I posted what my reciept was. If they have scewy billing that needs to be explained by memebers on this forum not my problem.
3. I thought admin fee for an upgrade was excessive. Well that's the great thing about having an opinion.
4. I complained about activation process. I currently own a $612 paper weight why would I be excited to own such a fancy weight?

I really only wanted to share my experience from purchase to fully working.
 

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You aren't alone in feeling this way about this system though. I've had the odd email and PM about the subject.
 

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Colin has been very quiet recently.
I apologize to everyone for my recent non participation on the board, but i do have my reasons.

I also unreservedly apologize for what now seems to have become a public squabble on this fine forum, it is was not my idea or intent, i did not initiate it and have done my best to ignore it, not provoke it or encourage it in any way.
However, under the circumstances of this particular post, which obviously seems to now have ever growing direct aspects, including quotes from E-Mails i have decided that it is best to now add my input only because i am sure many expect a response, are wondering why there is not one from me and perhaps some might might even appreciate reading my direct communications to Mike and the responses in full, rather than part.

It is a sad fact of any business no matter how well intended that you are always bound to encounter dissatisfied customers for whatever reason at some point, It is very easy to allow ones self to be provoked into entering into non productive argument. It is however more important than any other desire to remain professional and courteous at all times, It is after all how you handle the more difficult aspects that truly sets one apart.

I believe that i have, as you will read and judge for yourself, courteously attempted to explain to Mike the reasoning behind all of his points, I have offered him an unconditional refund should he desire and pointed out the mis understanding he has had in respect of his missing our instructions to now perform a vehicle scan and send us the results, without which we have no way of knowing anything about his specific vehicle and thus cannot issue any codes.

I really do not know what more i can do to appease Mike, we do the best we can under now ever more trying circumstances than ever, and i will now continue to refrain from comment, especially on a post which really does this fine forum no justice or favours at all regardless of provocation. I can but only hope that readers will understand my reasoning and motives.
I would however add that i have always regarded this forum with the highest esteem, i would never do or post anything that would lower the tone and consider them lucky to have a guy like Ron holding the reins who has personally taught me quite a lot, and i thank you all for your understanding and support.
My warmest regards to all, Including Mike
Colin

Copy of Mails as promised below

--- On Tue, 7/21/09, BBS Admin - Colin wrote:
From: BBS Admin
Subject: Re Quotation amendment
To: mikeXXXXXXXXX
Date: Tuesday, July 21, 2009, 2:32 AM


Dear Mike

Following your recent comments of complaint on Range Rovers.net forum, which i might humbly suggest might have been better handled and conveyed with a simple e-mail or PM to me, i have looked into the matter.
You are indeed correct that the administration fee is not applicable in the circumstance of upgrade from FCO SV to Full SV, and I can but only apologize for the oversight on the two quotations previously given to you, there was certainly no meaningful intent to "bend you over" and i am sure that should you have proceeded with the update that the matter would have been picked up by one of the more senior Admin staff. In fact our Admin staff are usually very highly commended.

So to correct,
To upgrade from FCO SV to Full SV (MP033 to MP011) during the July discount period will be $464.97 and there after $652.33

Regards Credit Card Surcharges,
Credit card merchants have long been very wary of any and all overseas mail order over internet transactions which understandably have a very high level of fraud rate, for this reason they charge much higher than expected rates to cover such transactions.
In our case the rate we are charged is 5% of the total transaction amount. It seems that Banks and money transactions are fast becoming a world wide problem for us all.

I hope that you would appreciate that our profit margin is already so low on our equipment, that we simply cannot suffer this additional loss and so do the best we can which is compromise by splitting it and paying some ourselves.

You will have noticed, that the goods are shipped with an invoice related only to the hardware, you will in due course also receive a separate invoice by E-mail for the software element that will add up to your total invoice value.

By doing this we do indeed help many customers in places where duties or VAT are a substantial factor although i appreciate that this may well not be applicable to you.

However other than helping out our customers in less fortunate locations there is another benefit to our doing this, in the form of a reduced value of goods in transit which requires less insurance and therefore lowers the cost of shipping some.

This does however mean that the system has to be shipped de activated, and to combat possible fraud or theft in transit the activation codes released only when the genuine and authenticated recipient acknowledges safe arrival.

I appreciate that you may well not understand the logic and reasoning behind this procedural requirement but it is there non the less.

Furthermore, I would hope that you would be able to appreciate that the only possible way for us to know and obtain the required information to correctly activate all the right software modules for your any specific vehicle we do require the connection of our hardware and the running of some special scan software followed by the sending to us of the results,
again with the best will in the world, this simply cannot be done until the other steps have been completed. This therefore does take some time.

Sadly your comments seem to elicit a degree of mis understanding, mistrust and impatience in us and our equipment that i quite firmly believe will not be conducive to a good experience with your equipment.
Before proceeding any further therefore, I would like to offer you this opportunity to return your equipment for a full and immediate refund.

I await your response.

cordially yours

Colin Whittall.

Hi Colin,

There is nothing on RR.net that I posted that isn't true. I have written a completely unbiased view of things from your customers prospective.

"So to correct,
To upgrade from FCO SV to Full SV (MP033 to MP011) during the July discount period will be $464.97 and there after $652.33"

How is this price any different then the price I got quoted and posted on RR.net other then you rolled the admin fee into the total. I checked the price I got quoted twice to ensure accuracy. The follow up email I recieved stated the price was correct. This email I just recieved from you also confirms the price I recieved is also correct. I dont want to argue about price your fully able to charge whatever you want. But just for sake of argument sv120=1248.11 sv320=666.89 1248.11-666.89=$581.22 This would be inline with what I would expect to pay for an upgrade. Which would basically be the price I got quoted minus the admin fee. Your customers should not have to check with Colin to get an accurate quote.

Regarding credit card surcharges. In the US companies also pay a 3% CC surcharges. Visa makes a percentage of your sale for the convienence of giving the company another way to collect payment for which if it didn't exist the sale may have never occured. In the US companies are NOT allowed to pass these charges onto the consumer. As far as you paying an extra 2% because of international scams. Can you see how this isn't anyone in the US's problem? We have our own scum bags to deal with why should we be faced to pay more for someone else's. Paying with CC exspecially for international orders is what most American's are going to feel comforitable with. It provides you added security. If the the merchant falls short on promised goods Visa refunds 100% of the costs. They then resolve getting the money back from the merchant to pay themselves back. I dont know how things work over there. My CC company did call me and I had to authorize this transaction .You have to look at things from your US customers point of view. We are not used to paying these fees so you have to also understand it doesn't make us happy. No where on RR.net did I say I got bent over for this CC surcharge. I wasn't happy about it but I accepted it. Someone in the US looking to order from you might find the post benificial in that it shows real costs to get the item to their door.

As for the reciept. Seems to me what you are doing is illegal. But I'm not a lawyer either and don't intend to judge you on what I don't know. As far as I know no one in the US pays taxes on web based transactions. You ship both hardware and software together so it seems rather fishy to me.

As for activation you have to also look at things from your cutomers point of view. What benifit does activation give your customer? None, this is soley benificial to your company this ensures your companies intellectual property is protected. Now imagine buying a $1000 computer and Microsoft tells you sorry you can't use it until we get around to activating it? And by the way we are on a completely different time zone then you and we only have one person giving out activation codes and we only work M-F 8-5 and not on holidays. Now you must sit back and weight for someone else to get around to making your paper weight work. I imagine you wouldn't be to happy about it either. Your activation process is less then desired. You
really should have an automated system here. One in which someone can read the codes from their vehicle submit them to a server on your side from the equipment software and recieve the codes back. At least for the basic features.
I've read your forum and from what I understand you have one person doing activation. This makes the waiting all that much more fun!

I've tried to keep my posts on RR.net completely unbiased and only report exactly what my costs and experiences are. Maybe instead of look at things from an owner perspective you should try switching seats and look at what your cutomers put up with to own your product. Not every company would be able to operate the way you do. I do however think its great that you guys have over the years produced a lower cost unit that an average person would be willing to purchase and provided an upgrade path for the feature. These are key selling points.

From here we'll see how things go. I'd like to say what I think of the product but I still can't use it.


--- On Wed, 7/22/09, BBS Admin - Colin wrote:
From: BBS Admin
Subject: Re: Re Quotation amendment
To: "Mike"
Date: Wednesday, July 22, 2009, 1:07 AM

Thank you for your comments.

For absolute clarity, can you simply confirm that by stating "From here we'll see how things go" you are declining my offer of refund at this time, yes or no, in which case, i shall not intervene with the normal procedure.
regards
Colin

Colin,

Do you withhold activation codes from people that don't rave about your product? I paid fully for a product I expect to get what I paid for. If I wasn't happy with your product I wouldn't waste my time returning it I would sell it to whoever would be willing to pay for it and move on.

Simply put how can I make a decision to return a product you have never fully delivered!

-Mike

Hiya Mike

No of course we do not withold codes to anyone for any reason, based on your comments thus far, i merely offered you the refund option from common courtesy.

As i have said before "Sadly your comments seem to elicit a degree of mis understanding,"
In your latest comments on RR.net You seem to be under the impression that it is we that need to send you some codes, however as explained by the text on the final page of the registration process, and in the confirmation mail sent out Monday and in the mail i sent you (second paragraph from last), we clearly stated that we now require you to perform a vehicle scan and send us the results so we know what codes to issue you for your vehicle. Without this we have no way to know what systems are fitted to your car and what codes to issue.
I am sorry if you missed that, and i can but hope that this clears up the procedural confusion.

Regards

Colin


copy of confirmation mail below
"Dear Mike,

Thank you for activating your owner's account. You may now log in with the new username and password that you have selected at

http://www.blackbox-solutions.com/support/
It may be necessary to adjust your firewall/security settings if the page cannot be displayed correctly.

Here you can gain access to the online forums which is our method of providing technical support, the latest versions of the software, other downloads and your personal TUP codes should any be available.

A vehicle scan is required to be carried out and then processed to enable TUP codes to be released.

Please retain a copy of this for future reference.

Regards
"Blackbox Solutions"
 

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Discussion Starter #18
BBS SPY said:
In your latest comments on RR.net You seem to be under the impression that it is we that need to send you some codes, however as explained by the text on the final page of the registration process, and in the confirmation mail sent out Monday and in the mail i sent you (second paragraph from last), we clearly stated that we now require you to perform a vehicle scan and send us the results so we know what codes to issue you for your vehicle. Without this we have no way to know what systems are fitted to your car and what codes to issue.
I did the scan and sent in the request the day I got acces to your forum. I still have the scan saved on my computer in html format dated July 17, 2009
This was sent to [email protected]
 

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nsxxtreme,

It's going to be one of the best purchases you've made for your range rover.

It's going to take a little understanding & once you've learnt a few basics you're going to love your range rover even more.

With regards to the snap on piece of kit, it's in a different league altogether & be thankfull you never purchased it.

I'd had a few of Colins customers come to me when they think things go wrong, but it's rarely the case & after i've spent five minutes going through it with them & there vehicle, they realise how simple it is to use once the basic rules are established.

There's plenty of people in this forum who will help you if you have difficulties, & there's a few that wont, the few that wont being prolific users of professional, more expensive diagnostic systems, but they will still be very helpful in diagnosing your vehicle problems.

You could not get a better piece of kit anywhere else for the money you paid, so there's no comparison although i'm always comparing it with the more expensive systems all the time & i still can't find anything else that even comes near it for coverage, let alone the price. All right, this sort of equipement cannot be bought off the shelf & to aquire one requires an ordering process & activation.

So, you've got the the best system for you money. You've done ok there.

You accepted the quote, & indeed paid. So that bit's ok.

I noticed from post you didn't like the invoice & the way it stated what you already agreed. So what went wrong at this stage with this agreement?

I feel like i've just wasted ten minutes of my life reading about a normal everyday transaction, between two different country's, between two people.

It seem's the complaint isn't even about the item, or in fact, range rovers in general.

Something like this should be kept between the parties involved, unless it's a doctors report that another person wants to publish on the forums.
 
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