[slun80]

Here's my last thread, last updated 21 days ago as my piece of garbage RR continues to sit at the dealership...

The Saga Continues...

Here's a link to my last post about my lovely Range Rover... https://www.rangerovers.net/threads/constant-issues-with-2011-hse-need-opinions.303017/#post-2077217 I'm up to 90k on the odometer now, and took it out for a stroll last weekend when it lost most of its power and the dash read...

www.rangerovers.net

Since that update, additional problems have surfaced....

• Two fuel pumps were bad and required replacement, along with one fuel line. The warranty company sent the inspector back out and approved the repair shortly after
• Once that was done, the throttle body was deemed to be bad, requiring replacement. The warranty company approved the repair. I "should" have the truck back next Monday. It will have been in the shop for two months.

Anyone reading my posts here lately can imagine my attitude towards this thing. I'm over it. The purpose of this post is to ask those that are more mechanically knowledgeable than I am a few questions...

1 - how on earth can all of this go wrong at the same time? As a reminder, I was driving the truck when "restricted performance" popped up. I drove it twenty miles home, and it was towed to the dealer. The result is a complete timing replacement, oil cooler (seems unrelated), fuel level sensor, valve sprockets, vacuum pump, two fuel pumps, and now a throttle body. Did one cause the other?

2 - the discussion about the timing chain tends to go off the rails on this site. One one hand, the issue is well-documented and some owners say replacement somewhere between 75k and 150k should be "expected". Fair enough. Expected is one thing. Acceptable is another. But what about the rest of this? Is it normal for me to be on my fourth fuel pump at 91k miles? How many are on the truck? Two?

The total warranty claim for this visit is now over $16,600, bringing the total claims in 42 months of ownership to nearly $25k.

 

[anvilrob]

My 2c....

These particular motors seem prone to encounter problems as a result of the introduction of extended oil service intervals.

While that may have delivered slightly more affordable ownership in the aggregate, the risk management side of that policy determines that some [unfortunate] owners will be footing atypical repair bills such as the OP's.

Upon teardown, the oil galleries within the variable valve timing gearing often show signs of restricted oil flow especially when owners "stretch" mileage between oil and filter changes.

The timing chains are very, very rarely the problem and can often be re-used.

However the timing chain TENSIONERS, being also reliant on high quality oil flow, are commonly the weakest link in the earlier batch of motors.

Once the tensioners and updated guides have been installed the best path forward is to rely on early oil changes to ensure their continued satisfactory performance.

The two high pressure fuel pumps deliver, in combination, up to 2000psi in the direct injection system fitted to these NA motors. The fuel pumps are often mis-diagnosed as causal to mis-fires and or non-starts. They aren't cheap (or easy to replace).

As frustrating an exercise this may have been it sounds like your truck, once fully repaired, ought to last you at least another 90,000 miles .

Rob

 

[dlimanov]

Also one thing to add: dealers LOOOOOVE aftermarket warranties simply for the fact that they can throw the parts on the car with very little pushback from the customer, as costs are being covered by aftermarket warranty. High pressure fuel pumps are sensitive to quality of gas, and it’s not unheard of them failing, but I think in your case dealer is just piling things on as a part of timing chain job, which isn’t bad for you, because you’re effectively getting all the troublesome components replaced at the same time.

 

[03rangiemark]

After pulling my intake manifold last night (on the 2012) to look at an intake runner tuning problem, I peeked down the intakes & saw lots of carbon.

Apparently, carbon build-up in these direct injection engines need the intake cleaned periodically, or else the carbon build-up can get beyond the point of reduced performance & fuel economy and begin interfering with performance to the point of throwing codes.
Tonight I bought a can of CRC intake valve cleaner from AutoZone that I'll apply when my wife's available to help with the process. Although I planned to take both my RR and my wife's Jag to the Clearwater Jag dealership to perform their induction cleaning, reports are that the CRC, Lucas and Seafoam GDI intake valve cleaners really help, so I'll give that a try.

Have you looked at your intake valves, to look at how much carbon build-up you have?
It could be at least part of a problem.

The Orlando LR dealership prescribe rebuilding the engine on mine when it began misfiring, for what they thought was a blown engine - blown head gasket. The indy shop I took it to for a 2nd opinion couldn't verify or support the dealership's findings, and just replaced spark plugs. It's been running fine since - almost two thousand miles.

Good luck getting to the bottom. And you might want to pull your intake manifold & peek at the intake valves for carbon build-up.

 

[EEHam]

As disgusted as you are right now, look on the bright side. All of this was done under warranty. Think about the poor guy or gal who might buy one of these in 2019 thinking about what could go wrong? They slap down $10k-$15k thinking they got a sweet deal on a good looking truck, only to be hit with a $16k bill in the first few months of ownership. ....ouch.

The timing chain, guides, and tensioners should last you longer than the old ones. If your intention is to sell it, having all of these maintenance items done are a selling point for an educated buyer. What color combo is your truck?

 

[ButchtheBARFdude]

Interesting stuff. This might be my first post and I am wandering around a bit.

 

[EEHam]

Here's my last thread, last updated 21 days ago as my piece of garbage RR continues to sit at the dealership...

The Saga Continues...

Here's a link to my last post about my lovely Range Rover... https://www.rangerovers.net/threads/constant-issues-with-2011-hse-need-opinions.303017/#post-2077217 I'm up to 90k on the odometer now, and took it out for a stroll last weekend when it lost most of its power and the dash read...

www.rangerovers.net

Since that update, additional problems have surfaced....

• Two fuel pumps were bad and required replacement, along with one fuel line. The warranty company sent the inspector back out and approved the repair shortly after
• Once that was done, the throttle body was deemed to be bad, requiring replacement. The warranty company approved the repair. I "should" have the truck back next Monday. It will have been in the shop for two months.

Anyone reading my posts here lately can imagine my attitude towards this thing. I'm over it. The purpose of this post is to ask those that are more mechanically knowledgeable than I am a few questions...

1 - how on earth can all of this go wrong at the same time? As a reminder, I was driving the truck when "restricted performance" popped up. I drove it twenty miles home, and it was towed to the dealer. The result is a complete timing replacement, oil cooler (seems unrelated), fuel level sensor, valve sprockets, vacuum pump, two fuel pumps, and now a throttle body. Did one cause the other?

2 - the discussion about the timing chain tends to go off the rails on this site. One one hand, the issue is well-documented and some owners say replacement somewhere between 75k and 150k should be "expected". Fair enough. Expected is one thing. Acceptable is another. But what about the rest of this? Is it normal for me to be on my fourth fuel pump at 91k miles? How many are on the truck? Two?

The total warranty claim for this visit is now over $16,600, bringing the total claims in 42 months of ownership to nearly $25k.

There is some interesting math here.

In another thread, I think you stated you bought your truck for $42k in 2016. Now, you were lucky or smart enough to also get one of those famous CarMax warranties for $2800 which in hindsight seems like a very wise move and one hell of a bargain. CarMax warranties are famously good. Better than any aftermarket warranty a person could buy for a used Range Rover today.

However, if you hadn't. (Which anyone buying an L322 TODAY would have a difficult time doing.) You've spent $67k to own your Range Rover. That, of course, doesn't include the incidentals of gas, oil, and tows.

So assuming you could sell it today for $18k through a private sale, a simple estimate of your cost of ownership (purchase price + maintenance-sale price) has been $49k for 4 years of ownership. So, what's that, a tad over $1k per month to own and maintain your truck?

Is that about it?

 

[slun80]

There is some interesting math here.

In another thread, I think you stated you bought your truck for $42k in 2016. Now, you were lucky or smart enough to also get one of those famous CarMax warranties for $2800 which in hindsight seems like a very wise move and one hell of a bargain. CarMax warranties are famously good. Better than any aftermarket warranty a person could buy for a used Range Rover today.

However, if you hadn't. (Which anyone buying an L322 TODAY would have a difficult time doing.) You've spent $67k to own your Range Rover. That, of course, doesn't include the incidentals of gas, oil, and tows.

So assuming you could sell it today for $18k through a private sale, a simple estimate of your cost of ownership (purchase price + maintenance-sale price) has been $49k for 4 years of ownership. So, what's that, a tad over $1k per month to own and maintain your truck?

Is that about it?

Yup, except I've owned it for 43 months and it's for sale locally for $15k now, so cost of ownership is actually about $1200/month if I didn't have the warranty!

 

[slun80]

As disgusted as you are right now, look on the bright side. All of this was done under warranty. Think about the poor guy or gal who might buy one of these in 2019 thinking about what could go wrong? They slap down $10k-$15k thinking they got a sweet deal on a good looking truck, only to be hit with a $16k bill in the first few months of ownership. ....ouch.

The timing chain, guides, and tensioners should last you longer than the old ones. If your intention is to sell it, having all of these maintenance items done are a selling point for an educated buyer. What color combo is your truck?

Mine is white with the tan interior. Lovely looking truck. Hopefully the next owner will be very pleased with it. I'm over it, though.

 

[slun80]

Well, it happened, folks. After two months at the dealership and nearly $17k in repairs (this trip), I picked my truck up and drove it the 35 miles home without a single breakdown!

A couple observations as I visited the dealership to pick it up...

1 - I asked to speak with the service manager as soon as I arrived. It took 30 minutes to see her, as she had 3 customers in front of me. When I told her who I was and that I was the owner whose truck had been there two months, she said, "Unfortunately that doesn't narrow it down". She wasn't kidding.

2 - I asked for a comparison of what they submitted to the warranty company vs. what the warranty company approved. Some parts and labor were submitted and approved at the same rate, but others were vastly different. I asked if that meant the warranty company approved generic parts vs. OEM, and she said no - they pay for OEM parts. So if that's the case, does that mean the dealer inflates those prices above MSRP? Did the warranty company find them on sale somewhere? Or did the dealership just accept less than accepted because there's so much profit built in?

3 - My service advisor said the truck had really grown on him over the past two months, and all the techs had been really enamored by it. Well, enamored by the situation, really. Two of them said that this truck should be "good to go for the foreseeable future, at least as far as the engine goes anyway" and laughed.

4 - I asked if anyone there would be interested in buying it. I'm advertising it locally for $15,500 and that includes the balance of the extended warranty (8k miles left so not huge value there), but I said the price is negotiable. No one was interested.

5 - The dealership did make me an offer of $12k. When I asked how much more they were offering because they knew the amount of repairs that had been done, he said "about $1k more". I found this interesting. Does this mean that potential buyers don't tend to look at repair history?

 

[EEHam]

Well, it happened, folks. After two months at the dealership and nearly $17k in repairs (this trip), I picked my truck up and drove it the 35 miles home without a single breakdown!

A couple observations as I visited the dealership to pick it up...

1 - I asked to speak with the service manager as soon as I arrived. It took 30 minutes to see her, as she had 3 customers in front of me. When I told her who I was and that I was the owner whose truck had been there two months, she said, "Unfortunately that doesn't narrow it down". She wasn't kidding.

2 - I asked for a comparison of what they submitted to the warranty company vs. what the warranty company approved. Some parts and labor were submitted and approved at the same rate, but others were vastly different. I asked if that meant the warranty company approved generic parts vs. OEM, and she said no - they pay for OEM parts. So if that's the case, does that mean the dealer inflates those prices above MSRP? Did the warranty company find them on sale somewhere? Or did the dealership just accept less than accepted because there's so much profit built in?

3 - My service advisor said the truck had really grown on him over the past two months, and all the techs had been really enamored by it. Well, enamored by the situation, really. Two of them said that this truck should be "good to go for the foreseeable future, at least as far as the engine goes anyway" and laughed.

4 - I asked if anyone there would be interested in buying it. I'm advertising it locally for $15,500 and that includes the balance of the extended warranty (8k miles left so not huge value there), but I said the price is negotiable. No one was interested.

5 - The dealership did make me an offer of $12k. When I asked how much more they were offering because they knew the amount of repairs that had been done, he said "about $1k more". I found this interesting. Does this mean that potential buyers don't tend to look at repair history?

Unfortunately, few care about the services performed. On most cars, good maintenance records are nice to have, but on vehicles like Range Rovers, it's really a MUST HAVE. There are a lot of '10-'12s up for sale right now with anywhere from 90k-125k on the clock, still running the original timing chain, guides, and tensioners. People that buy those are setting themselves up for a nasty experience. The Ford/Jaguar tensioners and guides were poorly engineered. Failure is all but guaranteed for those years. It was a design flaw.

But most used car buyers won't know this.

Tell them the timing service was just done, and most will just look at you with a blank stare. They won't understand why that's important, much less how much it will cost them if it hasn't been done. Today's used car buyers go by Kelly or maybe CarFax to determine value. And that's pretty much it.

Which might be fine if you're looking at a Toyota or some other brand that has reasonable reliability. But it is completely misleading on Land Rovers in general, and these Range Rovers in particular. Which is why I started that other thread. People who buy a $15k 2011 Range Rover with 80k-105k running on its original guides and tensioners are probably in for a very rude and nasty introduction as to why these trucks have depreciated so much.

However, an educated Land Rover enthusiast will understand, and that's why finding that one knowledgable buyer might be worth it. The average retail on these trucks right now is what it is.

It's funny but the market value of used Ford Explorer Sport Trac, a modestly priced truck, that when new cost 1/4th or 1/3rd the price of a new Range Rover of the same year. Now, however, a used Range Rover is roughly the same price as a used Ford Explorer Sport Trac of the same year and mileage.

....that should clue for potential buyers that something might be wrong. But everyone thinks they can get something for nothing.

TANSTAAFL.

 

[slun80]

Unfortunately, few care about the services performed. On most cars, good maintenance records are nice to have, but on vehicles like Range Rovers, it's really a MUST HAVE. There are a lot of '10-'12s up for sale right now with anywhere from 90k-125k on the clock, still running the original timing chain, guides, and tensioners. People that buy those are setting themselves up for a nasty experience. The Ford/Jaguar tensioners and guides were poorly engineered. Failure is all but guaranteed for those years. It was a design flaw.

But most used car buyers won't know this.

Tell them the timing service was just done, and most will just look at you with a blank stare. They won't understand why that's important, much less how much it will cost them if it hasn't been done. Today's used car buyers go by Kelly or maybe CarFax to determine value. And that's pretty much it.

Which might be fine if you're looking at a Toyota or some other brand that has reasonable reliability. But it is completely misleading on Land Rovers in general, and these Range Rovers in particular. Which is why I started that other thread. People who buy a $15k 2011 Range Rover with 80k-105k running on its original guides and tensioners are probably in for a very rude and nasty introduction as to why these trucks have depreciated so much.

However, an educated Land Rover enthusiast will understand, and that's why finding that one knowledgable buyer might be worth it. The average retail on these trucks right now is what it is.

It's funny but the market value of used Ford Explorer Sport Trac, a modestly priced truck, that when new cost 1/4th or 1/3rd the price of a new Range Rover of the same year. Now, however, a used Range Rover is roughly the same price as a used Ford Explorer Sport Trac of the same year and mileage.

....that should clue for potential buyers that something might be wrong. But everyone thinks they can get something for nothing.

TANSTAAFL.

Gosh, that's a great point about the Sport Trac vs. the Rover.

I've had a handful of calls or emails regarding the sale. One guy offered me a straight up trade for an old M3 - that was an interesting conversation worthy of consideration, but I don't need another vehicle. The most serious buyer thus far seemed to know the general reliability issues surrounding these trucks but nothing specific. I HAVE to believe that if you've made the decision to pursue one of these and the seller shows you a $16k repair bill that was paid yesterday, you'd be confident in paying $15k for that vehicle.

 

[EEHam]

Gosh, that's a great point about the Sport Trac vs. the Rover.

I've had a handful of calls or emails regarding the sale. One guy offered me a straight up trade for an old M3 - that was an interesting conversation worthy of consideration, but I don't need another vehicle. The most serious buyer thus far seemed to know the general reliability issues surrounding these trucks but nothing specific. I HAVE to believe that if you've made the decision to pursue one of these and the seller shows you a $16k repair bill that was paid yesterday, you'd be confident in paying $15k for that vehicle.

It wasn't a great seller. Ford quit production in 2010. But today they sell used $10k-$19k. Not horrible considering you could buy a fairly loaded one for around $28k in 2010.

Amazingly enough, a 2010 Range Rover can be had for that same price today. ...again, just a clue for those who might be thinking that 2010 Range Rover might be a "steal" at $15k. There is a **** good reason they're selling around this price.

 

[EEHam]

Gosh, that's a great point about the Sport Trac vs. the Rover.

I've had a handful of calls or emails regarding the sale. One guy offered me a straight up trade for an old M3 - that was an interesting conversation worthy of consideration, but I don't need another vehicle. The most serious buyer thus far seemed to know the general reliability issues surrounding these trucks but nothing specific. I HAVE to believe that if you've made the decision to pursue one of these and the seller shows you a $16k repair bill that was paid yesterday, you'd be confident in paying $15k for that vehicle.

Go on CarFax or CarGurus find a few 2011's with around 100k on the clock and ask them if they've had the timing chain guides, and tensioners serviced. You'd be amazed at how many still haven't. In fact, you'd be hard-pressed to find any that have that are asking $15k.

Most normal car buyers have absolutely no idea what problem they might be in for. All of the '10s-'12s should have been recalled.

Here's a class-action lawsuit for the AJ-V8s for the timing chain design flaw.

Jaguar Land Rover Timing Chain Lawsuit Says Engines Fail

A Jaguar Land Rover timing chain lawsuit alleges multiple models have timing chain systems that cause failures of the engines.

www.carcomplaints.com

I'd emphasize in my ad for the truck that you had it done. For those that haven't, it will fail. At the current used car price, it essentially totaled the truck.