[renkema]

starting thread as I unappropriately attached my issue to another thread. so, the quick background.

I had completely overhauled the timing chain cover area about 2.5 years ago (new timing chain, new water pump, new thermostat, new oil pressure switch, new radiator, new oil cooler and tranny fluid cooler lines, new water hoses, etc). Notice I did not say I replaced the oil pump gear as it looked in perfect condition (penny wise and many pounds foolish). this was all done as I had smelled burning oil (but not getting a low pressure oil light). turns out, after dropping the pan, I found red gasket maker clogging the oil takeup in the pan. Once all back together (not a small job), everything worked perfectly until this summer.

This summer, I started to get the oil pressure light flicker on low idle. then last week at a gas station, the stater flamed out (literally). So I had it towed to the house, put new stater in, turned over and the oil pressure light stayed on. I knew it was responding correctly as I could here the tapping at startup that usually gets muted after 2-3 seconds when the oil bath starts to flow over the top of the engine (not the best design for wear). this tapping stayed past that time and so I knew something was amiss.

fast forward to what to do and how to suss out. this is the RRC engine where the crank drives the pump in the TC cover and has cooler lines to/from radiator at the oil filter head. I thought maybe the radiator was clogged but from research on this forum, it appears the oil will travel appropriately (just not as cool) if that were to happen, so I've ruled that out. Note this radiator bypass functionality is not necessarily true for older RCC engines. (think 91 and before). The only other suspects would be (like before) a clogged oil pan takeup tube or the oil pump gear has gone south. maybe the oil gear was about to fail all along and has done so completely in concert with the starter motor (my guess it's just completely coincidental). However, I had a cracked oil gear in my disco II that was still functioning enough to push oil, so I'm stumped on what's really going on.

The betting folks herein have weighed that its the takeup that's clogged. only one way to find out. so i'll get the parts needed, start the tear in, and report back. Any thoughts on additional items or missed culprits, please advise. thanks

 

[Lockettc]

Wear/groves between the cover and the pump gear impact oil pressure – not groovy is better! I would also install a direct reading gauge…. OEM is a simply light, which is triggered at 5 psi?

 

[95classiclwb]

only way to really find out with out damaging the engine is to tear down and inspect.

 

[renkema]

found the issue. it was the oil pump gear. the gear did not crack (as I saw with my DII) but there's a lot of fine metal and the gear does not mover freely. Not really sure what happened but the oil pump gear is toast. the shards look a lot like a front diff that went too long without an oil change (fine gray metal sludge). worst part is the gear cover (the piece that sits on top of the gear held in by screws) was impacted and is now "groovey". I'm sure I could refinish that side but there would still be grooves. Not sure if that is the way to go. I have a new gear but hesitant to move forward. not sure if complete front covers are even available. maybe the gear screw down cover is available but not sure. any thoughts on best route.

tried to post pics via the attachment icon but to no avail.

 

[Lockettc]

Contact Mark at D&D. He may have a front cover or, possibly assist in restoring yours.

http://www.aluminumv8.com/Home/Contact

 

[renkema]

searched far and wide for a new front cover but to no avail. I machined the internal gear plate smooth but it still has grooves. I also resurfaced the circular inside of the the cover where the gear sits. So I've eliminated any raised/fused spots but there are still grooves in both. Not sure what issues this would pose but have noted the post regarding grooves not being good. Assume that's a given but just how bad it is to run this way hasn't been discussed. I ordered another used front cover and hopefully it will arrive without a shredded gear underneath. Maybe just use the internal plate if its good and go from there. Will also check out the D&D website. trying to keep my RPI 4.6 running as long as possible but at some point a new engine may be required.

 

[renkema]

also for those who have or will have the same issues in the future, I believe the part #s that work for front cover are ERR6814 (original to the '95 RCC) and ERR6815 (the D1 version). I think the only difference in these two is the cam sensor addition to the D1 version but others chime in if that's not correct.

 

[Lockettc]

also for those who have or will have the same issues in the future, I believe the part #s that work for front cover are ERR6814 (original to the '95 RCC) and ERR6815 (the D1 version). I think the only difference in these two is the cam sensor addition to the D1 version but others chime in if that's not correct.

I may actually have a cover – will check later today. I apologize – just remembered possibly having one as a spare.

 

[95classiclwb]

have you ever heard of "TA Performance" they specialise in buick engines, they offer all kinds or toys for aluminum and iron buick blocks.

 

[Lockettc]

I may actually have a cover – will check later today. I apologize – just remembered possibly having one as a spare.

The cover I have is from a 4.6l. Part number: HE 1310148 - not compatible for several reasons. I will keep looking….

 

[renkema]

have you ever heard of "TA Performance" they specialise in buick engines, they offer all kinds or toys for aluminum and iron buick blocks.

I'll check them out. hadn't thought of contacting RPI. maybe they have a resource as well.

 

[renkema]

The cover I have is from a 4.6l. Part number: HE 1310148 - not compatible for several reasons. I will keep looking….

Ok, just let me know what you find.

 

[renkema]

ok, need help with the next step.

I've secured the front cover from a D1. the oil pump plate is in good shape. So first thought is just to swap it to my '95 front cover and live with the slight scoring where the oil pump sits in the cover itself. OR...

The D1 plate looks fundamentally the same except: 1) has a crank position sensor 2) has a dizzy shaft hole but is plugged (as it came from a electronic timing D1) and 3) the dizzy set post is not there. there is a spot for the post but I would have to use tap set to drill/tap. I would also have to somehow punch out the dizzy shaft hole and machine it smooth as the tap (of course, I might crack the whole mess in doing so.

So, big question is has anyone ever done this. If not, given the experience on these forums, I think it may not be wise or even doable and I should just try to machine the inside of my current one and use the new oil pump cover plate.

thoughts?

 

[renkema]

answer my own question.

looks like not as simple as knocking out the dizzy plug. while the covers for the dizzy version and the electronic version are essentially identical, getting the electronic version machined to accept a dizzy is not for the DIYer. While the dizzy is obviously not there on the electronic version, there is the casting for the port to accept it. Problem is the cast bore size of that whole is not the final size bore to accept the dizzy. It appears the cast hole is further machined a tad wider and a top taper added for mating to the dizzy. I'm sure a machine shop could do this (and the dizzy bolt as well) but not really possible for the average DIYer without the proper press, jigs, bores, etc.

so, its back to plan one (oil pump gear plate from donor part to replace damaged one from original) this will probably be fine anyway just not perfect.

 

[Lockettc]

Good plan - the new pump and plate will likelyresolve your issue.

 

[95classiclwb]

contact Paul Grant he may be able to help you with a cover.

 

[renkema]

update...so far, not good. new pump and plate (and new serp belt, and new PS pump and new ps fluid and new oil filter and new oil and new coolant.... etc etc). put it all together incl engine lub to prime. started up last night...perfect..immediate oil pressure. I even loaded the filter to minimize the air in the system. thought all was well...until this morning. started and now no oil pressure. baffling. I'm using 5w30 full synthetic given how cold it gets here in western CO in the winter. guess I will have to tear all down again to see what's up. maybe my front cover is just shot and will just not provide tolerances for pressure. can't understand why pressure last night and none this morning. very frustrating. any been there done that thoughts on what may be the issue are much appreciated.

 

[renkema]

apart again. no signs of a loose pump. it seems to turn just fine. the only thing I can imagine is that the engine lube was thick enough to prime the oil gear/pump on the first start after first install, then oil settled over night and the 5w30 was too thin to get primed on its own. sounds like a stretch but I can't think of anything else that would cause no pressure after full pressure last night. suppose I need a new cover altogether (or it's time to sell altogether and be happy with the G4 and HSE as those seem to react better to lots of $s thrown at them).

 

[IchWill]

Just a coincidence...good friend of mine has an '83 Jeep J20 with 360 ci engine, was to have 10w40...he used Lucas synthetic (don't remember what weight)...lasted about 30 miles and smoked the crank bearings, lost oil pressure instantly at 50 mph. Some engines run fine on synthetic, others don't for some reason.

My youngest brother had an early '80's Nissan pickup, V6 with many miles on it...he used full synthetic after he bought it...never had an issue, no leaks and he sold it a number of years later with 250,000 on the ticker..

I'm in Illinois, was 18 degrees this morning, using 20w50 in the old '85...no starting and no oil pressure issues....your guess is as good as mine, please post if you get it worked out..

Tony in Illinois
85 Classic
96 Disco 1

 

[renkema]

Nature abhors a vacuum but that's what I need to happen!

Trying to go through the oil flow to see where there would be vacuum loss but can't seem to find anything as the path is not very complicated. I think that's why a lot of folks point to the sump pickup tube. As long as it's submerged in the sump oil, not blocked and it's gasket sound, the oil pump should apply vacuum and pull directly through the block and into the front cover then distribute/cool from there (even if the sump gasket is not the best).

per the rave, 5w30 is what I should be running here in Colorado given our temps range (-15 F to 85 F). but maybe as you suggest, synthetic is not the way to go.

I've put out an APB on a new cover (or at least one that is from a known donor). Will absolutely report back on the result.

My wife has nixed the idea of getting rid of it. she said that's like paying for your son to go to Harvard for 3 1/2 years and then not paying for the last semester. I think we definitely have a college tuition in this rover for sure.