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1970-1995 Range Rover Classic
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Discussion Starter #1
Until now, the problem was intermittent and after I removed the electrical socket, cleaned it with a carbon fiber brush and electrical parts cleaner it seems to work perfectly. Today, after behaving normally at startup after a short while all three dashboard warning lights came on and stayed on. No obvious fluid loss and plenty of pressure by standing on the pedal, but no boost or ABS.

Yes, I have read the diagnostic hints on http://www.rangerovers.net/repairdetails/abs.html but living in a remote bush location, it is not a simple matter to take the vehicle to the specialists, though I can order parts from them and return them if they do not fix the problem.

Sensible advise about the options will be appreciated:

1. Replace the pressure switch and see if that fixes it
2. Replace the accumulator - ditto
3. Get a bank loan and replace the pump - not something I'm prepared to do, even if I could find a new pump
4. Swap the current setup for one scavenged out of a P38. Has anyone done this?
5. Rip out the entire ABS system and replace it with the older master cylinder/brake booster system. Has anyone done this successfully?

Personally, I do not like ABS. My other Rangie - a 91 has the conventional system and is idiot-proof
 

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1970-1995 Range Rover Classic
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Discussion Starter #3
Actually, brakes are not spongy. Stand hard on the pedal and there is plenty of pressure and the vehicle will slow and stop - eventually. Driving on the country and bush roads to get here, I can use the gearbox to control speed, then use the brake to finally stop. However, this will not be practical and will in fact be dangerous in city or highway traffic. Also, there is no way the vehicle will pass the annual registration test so it has to be fixed.

The workshop has now advised that fitting a standard master cylinder and booster will be illegal and if there is ever a prang, there could be big trouble, especially from the insurance company.

No-one to their knowledge has swapped the system for one from a P38 but I'm still hoping someone of this forum has done it.

Used pressure switches are hard to find here, with no guarantee they work - the workshop is trying to find one. An accumulator is over $300 and there is no guarantee that is the problem either.

A NEW pump is now over $2000 here in Oz - if you can get one - absolutely unaffordable.

Advice is still needed from someone on this forum please, before I start chasing parts from the US.
 

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1970-1995 Range Rover Classic
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359 Posts
The 91 normally should've come with ABS, unless there's some Yobbo Specification Edition that didn't have it.

I don't know what kind of inspections the Oz has for a car like yours, but a sneaky delete should be undetectable to insurance.
 

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Try posting to landroversonly
P76rangie is over there
He may help you overcome your abs
 

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1970-1995 Range Rover Classic
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http://www.landroversonly.com/forums/f8/abs-pump-accumulator-38095/#/topics/38095

The motor is apparently drop in, but some modification is needed to fit the full P38 unit.

Here in the states, the first parts to get picked from 87-89 models is the brake booster and mc so they can be transplanted into later cars. Non ABS Discos are around in your part of the world, so you can probably find a donor from those.
 

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1995-2002 Range Rover Classic
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The 91 normally should've come with ABS, unless there's some Yobbo Specification Edition that didn't have it.

I don't know what kind of inspections the Oz has for a car like yours, but a sneaky delete should be undetectable to insurance.

yes your "Yobbo" edition in the US is called a "Hunter" it is completely plain, I'm sure the rest of the world market has more of them than we do in the NAS market
 

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1970-1995 Range Rover Classic
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Discussion Starter #8
This is a 93, not a 91 and on the Vogue SE. ABS was standard. My other Rangie is a 91 Hi-line and that does NOT have ABS - it might be the "hunter" equivalent mentioned by 95classic"

I'm going to talk to a (Land Rover trained) mechanic who is less anal than the workshop manager at my regular service place. He will either find a way to fit a P38 unit or revert to the old booster model. You are right that a Disco unit is likely to be easier to fit than a P38

Landrovers only appear to be off line.
 

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1970-1995 Range Rover Classic
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The site is online now.

The "Hunter" here didn't sell particularly well. The lack of shiny wood, manual cloth seats, optional sunroof, and no sway bars meant that it wasn't popular among rich housewives. BMW loved to put "Highline" on their very expensive models, maybe Rover thought differently.

A non-ABS Disco's setup is very similar to your 91's if you're looking at the delete option, the ABS Disco 1 uses its own pump\accumulator system completely unrelated to the P38 or ABS Classic.
 

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1970-1995 Range Rover Classic
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Discussion Starter #10
Discussion with the EX Land Rover UK expert was not encouraging. Changing to the old non-ABS is not only illegal, but it is a very time-consuming job and not viable. The change to a P38 system is also not as simple as it might sound, so the best option is to repair the existing system.

He did provide good advice about further diagnosis so I have now done the following:

1 Drained the accumulator and checked to hear if the pump was operating - nothing happening
2 Removed the side trim below the left seat and checked the relay and fuses. The relay was getting very hot and has signs of heat-stress on the underside. It seems likely that it was jamming "on" and caused the rest of the problem
3. The big 30Amp fuse had blown and was not therefore delivering power to the pump. However, it may have blown too late to prevent pump damage
4. Ran jumper wires from the battery to the pump - not working

I'm about to remove the pump from the vehicle, then send it to Falconworks to have it rebuilt. Their price is nowhere near that of a new pump but from Oz to the US and back, the freight will be nasty. so it may be better to fix it here. There is an excellent article on the main rangerovers.net website on how to do this, though the main hassle is finding the replacement parts). The workshop has a "mystery" collection of ABS parts in an unmarked box. I have requested a photograph of the bits in the hope that needed parts may be there.

I'll post pictures as this progresses but meanwhile, if anyone on this forum has a pump or other parts to sell, please let me know
 

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1970-1995 Range Rover Classic
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Discussion with the EX Land Rover UK expert was not encouraging. Changing to the old non-ABS is not only illegal, but it is a very time-consuming job and not viable. The change to a P38 system is also not as simple as it might sound, so the best option is to repair the existing system.
Alright, since the ABS delete is off the table, let's step back for a second. The tech has diagnosed it as a bad ABS pump and P38 pumps are very similar, so is the latter lying around at your home?

Eric D from LandRoversOnly said:
This is just information requested, it is by no means meant as a DIY.
Proceed at your own risk as I am releasing myself of any liability.


The P38 pump is basically the same thing found in our RRC, differences being the mounting locations and its a self contained unit.

You have to remove your old accumulator and pump. Replace with the P38 unit, drill some holes for the mounts, and get a union to fit the steel hose from the old accumulator and a hose from union to pump.
You would also need a Rists connector from your old pump spliced to the P38 pump. "
https://www.lrukforums.com/threads/abs-pump-p38-to-classic.207863/
 

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1970-1995 Range Rover Classic
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Discussion Starter #13
http://www.landroversonly.com/forums/f8/abs-pump-accumulator-38095/#/topics/38095

The motor is apparently drop in, but some modification is needed to fit the full P38 unit.
Update - I have finally found a complete P38 pump locally for a reasonable price. I'm now removing the old motor from the existing pump section in the hope that the P38 motor will fit without modification. Otherwise, I'll have to swap the complete units, so if anyone can remember exactly what mods are needed, specific info (and pictures) would be appreciated. J Beswick in the UK who claim to have a conversion kit do not respond to emails

There will definitely have to be some electrical work done. The PO (or his workshop) botched the wiring so nothing gets to the pump motor. I'll fix that with new wiring from the battery via the 30 amp fuse and the (AB2) pump relay.

However, they even removed the plug used to read the fault codes. I presume the 32 pin unit found in his "spares" collection is the right one, but where it fits into the loom is beyond my simple mind - can't find it in the wiring diagrams. Can anyone advise please?
 

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1970-1995 Range Rover Classic
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132 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
Progress!

I have just swapped the pump motor and drive impeller using parts from the P38 unit just obtained. Also fixed several electrical problems and the motor/pump are now running. I have also answered my own question about the fault code readings when I found the correct plug behind the ECU where some kindly soul had hidden it so codes have now been cleared

However, I found the flexible hose from the reservoir to the pump had perished and due to its location, I'm having a terrible time trying to remove the old hose from the reservoir end and replacing it with a new hose. It would be much easier if the reservoir could be removed to do this job and it would make sense to clean out the filter while I'm at it.

Though I have been through the manual/Rave I cannot find the bolts holding the reservoir in place.

Does anyone know how to do this please?
 
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