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2016-2018 Range Rover Sport
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Discussion Starter #1
I had my '18 L494 in to the friendly local dealership twice in the past 2mo, and both times I reported a handful of issues, each time including a report of a DTC related to crankshaft position sensor DTCs as well as audible engine knock.

The first visit (late July), my starter motor was deemed faulty and was replaced; the crankshaft position sensor error(s) were deemed related to that issue (a causal relationship here is not clear to me), and the DTC apparently didn't resurface, so I took the vehicle back and carried on.

The second visit, in late August, was mainly scheduled since I pulled codes for the first time since getting the vehicle back about 3 weeks afterwards, and saw a crankshaft position sensor error with "Current Fault" designation. I scheduled another service visit and was informed that the DTC was in the "previous fault memory" and so would not be investigated. The software was updated on the vehicle (relating to my other concerns) and I let the dealership's service department know that I'd keep an ear out in case the engine knock got worse.

This past Friday, after some tooling around on some desert roads, I could tell the knock was a bit more pronounced, and the idle a bit rougher. After getting back to pavement and airing up, I saw my CEL now on (solid, amber), and saw no other messages (even when checking the "Check Messages" option in the gauge menu option, it read "OK"). Strangely, despite the lack of any additional message, I noticed as soon as I pulled away from airing up that I was in limp mode (aka "reduced power output" mode).

I made the <10mi trip back to the hotel in limp mode; the exhaust had some new gurgles and pops that I'd imagine sound somewhat like those on the SVR. I grabbed my code scanner from my room, headed back to the truck, and saw:
Pending Faults:
- P000A
- P000B
- P0024
- P0087
Historic Fault:
- P0021

I also took a video to capture the motor sound at idle:

The vehicle was dropped off at the nearest dealership Saturday morning (1 Sept), and at COB today (4 Sept) I'm still awaiting status on what parts will have to be ordered. I drove it 6mi there under its own power after confirming w/ the service department that a solid amber CEL and limp mode meant I could still make the short trip.

I'm genuinely hoping that serious engine work won't be necessary on a truck that's barely past 3mo old with about 6k mi on the clock. I guess the best case scenario is a new crankshaft position sensor, maybe a new timing chain tensioner (read about this plaguing generations past), and I'd guess a leak-down test for good measure to be reasonably sure the internals check out.

Worst case? Who knows.

To further complicate matters, I'm stuck out-of-town in a hotel I'd planned to check out of this past Saturday; luckily, I can work from here. Somehow I have a sneaking suspicion though that the Roadside Assistance benefit involving "reasonable reimbursement of out-of-pocket expenses if a warranty-related disablement occurs more than 50 miles from home" won't be as clear-cut as the verbiage makes it seem.
 

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That sounds like a failed phaser unit, the earlier BMW motors had it, and the Ford motors have it. This engine was slightly based off of the Ford 5.0's block.

Engine does not have a simple timing chain tensioner, at that point it is complete timing overhaul and a $10k+ bill (for warranty, being a 2018). Highly unlikely..!

My guess is the 4 phaser units have to be replaced, along with the phaser solenoids. CPS will not make it sound like that.

Replace "Phaser" with variable valve timing unit, or VANOS.. Ford calls it the phaser.


If they can't get it right, lemon law it. Get a new one without engine troubles.
 

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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited by Moderator)
Thanks for the super-helpful info. I've checked out TOPIx and it seems this would be about a 1.5-day repair (assuming an 8hr service technician workday). I wonder though how long I might be waiting for these phasers (or "Variable Camshaft Timing Actuators" as TOPIx calls them) to arrive at the dealership.

I wonder whether any ancillary work would be done as a precautionary measure to help reduce chances of latent "downstream" problems surfacing later on.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
A new motor's been approved as a warranty claim; as far as I understand it, telemetry captures and sound captures were enough to skip past the component-level diagnosis and just get on w/ a crate swap.

I'd imagine JLR would probably be keen on having their own engineers do the tear-down and post-mortem; maybe it's also to minimize cumulative days-out-of-commission relating to the 'same' issue -- the prior two crankshaft position sensor-related service visits were just under 1wk each iirc. At 30 cumulative days, it'd be within scope of the CA Song-Beverly Consumer Warranty Act (on my quick read).

I've got faith that things will go smoothly, but I do have to wonder whether there are tales from other JLR owners who've had a warranty engine swap carried out by a dealership's service dept that might give me pause.
 

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I was just going to reply that JLR doesn't like repairing engines, just completely replacing them. They do not sell separate components.

My 5.0 engine replacement bill was $29,000~.. let me know what yours is.

I've found a few small issues with my engine replacement.. Mostly unclipped zip ties, and a few missing brackets that cost a few dollars each. I had it done by Howard Orloff in Chicago, and I would not go to them anymore after seeing the work performed on my lift. PM me if you'd like the service record I got for fun..
 

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Discussion Starter #6
My 5.0 engine replacement bill was $29,000~.. let me know what yours is.
My total estimate (not knowing the cost of the crate motor) was $25-40k.

With prior warranty work, the documentation I received from my local dealer was always devoid of any cost info whatsoever, and once when I wanted to collect cost info for the starter motor that'd been replaced, "in case something like this happens to me outside of warranty," I was told it'd cost less than what I saw on the white sheets that weren't for me to keep, yet did require my signature (I couldn't get a copy, but I was more curious than firm). I thought it odd that I didn't get a copy of that, and also that it'd cost an owner less if paying out-of-pocket. That was a different dealership than the one doing the engine replacement though, so maybe I'll have better luck at getting comprehensive info this time around.
 

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jobs like this are awesome for the dealership, as you know so you can insist on getting a copy of all paperwork - they won't say no. Good luck, and please keep posting as you go.
What a bummer it is what you're going through.
 

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2016-2018 Range Rover MkIV / L405
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I’d definitely push for a new truck. A motor swapped car is not what you agreed to buy 3 months ago, and will certainly impact your resale value.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
My replacement engine needs a replacement, since it was dropped in shipping, so the timeline is pushing out a bit to sometime next week. Good on the dealership I guess for not trying to carry out repairs on damaged goods and further reducing the chances this thing has at being as-close-to-factory-fresh as it possibly can be.

Compounding matters is this whole ordeal, but this thread is for the motor situation so I'll keep the drama/feels around that situation out of this thread.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Last night I picked up the truck at 5:30 PM w/ the new engine. Scanned for DTCs prior to leaving the lot, and none were present.

Drove the six miles or so back to the hotel I'm staying at, and noticed a rough idle as well as what sounded like a pretty consistent misfire, so I immediately recorded this:
Still no DTCs at that time.

I did some driving at low and high speeds for 3-5 hours to see whether it was a fueling trim adaptations-related condition. It didn't seem to be. DTCs finally surfaced as "pending" just before midnight.

Brought back to dealership first thing the next morning. DTCs must've moved to "current fault" status on my way there, since that was the first time the MIL lit up.

Diagnosis: failed aux coolant pump, which is suspected to have been the root cause of the original engine's death. I sure am glad I didn't hot-foot it the several hundred miles back home.

It's been a week since I moved my Customer Relationship Center case to the "lemon" team. I was assured upon doing so that I'd hear back from them within two business days. At the end of the second business day, I sent an email to my former case manager to let him know I still hadn't heard from them. I did get a voicemail the following day (Weds), but my numerous attempts to establish contact since then have not been fruitful (nor has my request for the new case manager to email me).

So I'm still 'stranded' in Reno until, at least, early next week. Until then, I'll just have to wonder what non-renewed components have been subjected to significant thermal stress, since it seems the Independent Operator version of the Workshop Manual's "Long/Stripped Engine Assembly Renew" article curiously reads "This section contains no data".

o_O
 

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I'm going up to Reno tomorrow and coming back Monday. I'll drop by and say "hi"! That dealership actually moved a couple of years ago from their old location at S. Virginia. Hope they figure things out.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Officially a Lemon

I called my the dealership this afternoon after checking out TOPIx and asking whether the part number for the aux coolant pump that'd failed could be shared, as I wanted to determine what other parts reliant on the specific pump for cooling had not been renewed.

They could not share this info, despite checking if the item was in stock hours prior, and placing an order for it upon subsequently learning it was not in stock. (Odd. I suspect it is LR067228.)

I also asked about whether the service department would be able to provide me with a written statement that, in their view, the various components that had not been renewed that rely on coolant were, in their view, "safe" for operation and roadworthy enough for a several-hundred mile drive home.

They could not provide such assurance.

I then asked whether they'd be able to consult engineering at corporate in order to gain such assurance, as the non-renewed parts were, for several thousand miles (the knock & sensor DTC symptoms presented in early July), effectively cooking, especially at low speeds, and subjected to thermal stresses likely far beyond their design limitations.

They apparently cannot seek such a consultation, and advised I contact the Customer Relationship Center in order to seek this assurance myself.

About twenty minutes after that call, I received a call from my new case manager on the lemon team at the CRC advising me that my vehicle had received the equivalent of a lemon approval -- that I could, in fact, exercise repurchase or replacement options. (Timing could've been coincidental.) I didn't really need to hear this, since the vehicle's cumulative days in service exceed fifty at this point, about 40 of which are specifically related to this knock/timing/heat-death situation. The case manager provided other details about the process other than, from the lemon CRC team's perspective, the case was now closed, and that the next step would be for me to hear from the Consumer Affairs division for next steps. When would I hear from them? "In the next week or two." (I'm sort of numb to it now.)

I was also advised to send copies of expenses I plan to seek reimbursement for to this case manager, despite "his" case being closed. (Also odd?)

The case manager asked me whether Reno was my final destination -- a question I had answered at least twice before with CRC folks and possibly once with the Roadside/Club Auto account coordinator who'd been the opposite of helpful and accountable -- and I once again indicated that it was not, and that my original checkout date of this hotel was Sept 1st to depart onto the camping trip along 89 my wife and I planned to enjoy together with the Jeep and the Rover. I let him know that I was fully aware that I would not be qualified for Trip Interruption reimbursement if Reno was in fact my final destination, and that I had answered this question honestly and consistently the several other times I had asked. (I'm fairly sure this is a detail that exists at least once in the case notes, and the cynic in me suspects, at this point, they're hoping I trip up, which would be easy to do if I were being less than honest I suppose.)

Back to the point:

After more TOPIx dives, a renewed EPC subscription, and actually reading the work order notes from the tech, I'm pretty convinced that I'll only be an occupant of that vehicle in a stationary state, to retrieve my belongings, and if I'm lucky, possibly even remove the five new 20" wheels and KO2s I hardly had a chance to use.

Here are some of the highlights that cause grave concern around the roadworthiness of the vehicle with the components currently living in the engine bay. Bear in mind, the cooling system in which the aux pump LR067228 and main pump LR097165 reside is responsible for cooling:
  • the oil cooler [not replaced as far as my research has shown]
  • the engine ['mostly' replaced]
  • the electric throttle [not replaced as far as my research has shown]
  • the Automatic Transmission Fluid (ATF) cooler [not replaced as far as my research has shown]
  • the supercharger, which has its own distinct (but apparently not discrete) cooling system
And here are some highlights from the tech's notes (my fragmentation added via bullets, case adjusted):
  • Removed engine oil filter for inspection. Metal found with little to no oil in filter housing. Does not appear to have oil pressure.
  • Filter cut. Oil is metal in color with no large pieces. Submitted FRED #[redacted].
  • Instructed to take picture of oil level in inst. cluster and perform oil pressure check.
    • After installing new oil filter for oil pressure test there was no oil on filter after running engine a couple of times
    • A 0 PSI oil pressure was found
  • Removed lower under body shield [...] Oil sample taken. Metal shavings found with metal swirls in oil.
That was before the engine replacement. Here are some highlights afterward:
  • Replaced vacuum pump do [sic] to siezing [sic] (lack of oil pressure).
  • Also replaced high pressure fuel pumps and buckets. Scoring on buckets and high pressure pumps dry.
  • Reassembled. Cleard DTC's, reset PCM adaptations.
  • Started engine, used Pathfinder to view transmission temp. Topped up fluid.
  • Check engine light is on. [but hey, DTCs were just cleared, no?]
  • Checked DTC's. P0307-00 [hey there, that's a misfire! the same thing I noticed 6mi after leaving dealership]
  • Removed ignition coil cylinder 7. Broken porcelain. [okay, different cyl than the one misfiring for me, cyl 1]
  • Removed spark plug. Used vacuum to remove porcelain.
  • Used Pathfinder to clear DTC's and reset PCM adaptations. Started vehicle to verify repair. OK.
Yikes.

I don't wanna drive it. Best case scenario, I'm in a rental [i.e. not a courtesy car w/ a 100mi tether to Reno] with five wheels+tires in the back, headed to CA one day soon, and soon thereafter giving my OE wheels/tires to my local dealership.

Now I've got to get on top of the BBB's "Auto Line" lemon complaint form, and not just because I find the Consumer Affairs "one or two week" timeline for initial contact laughable -- apparently those of us in CA are "required to use BBB AUTO LINE before asserting in court any rights or remedies conferred by California Civil Code Section 1793.22."

I wonder if Consumer Affairs would've informed me of this. Good thing I'm trapped in a hotel presently with no life, a wife presently abroad (one of the crappiest things about this whole thing is having to put the pet in a kennel because of this), and all the time in the world to read up on what I can do to bolster my chances not only of physical safety and a return to relative sanity, but also knowing what I need to know before the moment I'd need to know it.

Also, I suppose I should be glad this is all playing out just prior to a planned move out of CA back east... we've got some dank consumer protections.
https://www.bbb.org/us/Storage/16/Documents/BBBAutoLine/CA-LLaddinfo.pdf
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Re: Officially a Lemon

Oh yeah, that:

Trackhawk.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Moot Cause vs Root Cause

Digesting this information a bit more has led me to believe that one or more faulty ECUs may really be the root cause here.

I mentioned at the outset that the Reduced Engine Power message had never been displayed, even when visiting the menu item for Display Warnings or Check Warnings or whatever it's called.

Now it seems clear, based on the tech's notes, that I did not have oil pressure. I never saw a light for that either.

It also seems to indicate that my oil level was low. I checked this pretty regularly in the instrument cluster. It never displayed below max.

Sure, a lot of non-critical things were screwy (infotainment/climate), and even some semi-critical, safety-impacting subsystems (camera subsystem failures, displays turning off) were the most obvious as the person who interacts with these two-way systems, but the lack of the one-way communication, from the vehicle to the operator (or perhaps from the PCM to whatever bus connects it to the displays) seems apparent.

Looking back, there seem to have been several clear conditions warranting driver alerts, each of them spanning time and surely not brief, isolated incidents -- reduced power output, low/no oil pressure, low oil level despite the indicator signaling otherwise -- which have me pretty convinced that the pseudo RCA suggested by the dealership (pointing to the aux coolant pump) misses the mark.

If the nerves in your hand stopped working, and one day you planted it onto a hot griddle without realizing until you heard and smelled the sizzle, citing the griddle being plugged in as the condition leading to the injury seems myopic. The nerves being unplugged would, in my view, be a better bet. RCAs can't rely onprima facie evidence because, let's face it, roots are generally hidden from view.

First visit for excessively-evident software issues? Day 14 (0-indexed) after taking delivery.
FirstElectronicsComplaint.jpg
 

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Re: Moot Cause vs Root Cause

Ugh. Definitely don't want to get anywhere near that thing. Good luck with the Lemon Law. It shouldn't be difficult. Maybe see you in Reno this weekend.
 

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..and will certainly impact your resale value.
Of course it won't. Engine swaps and tranny swaps do not show on Carfax or other value determining sites. Such undertakings simply say "warranty repair" if anything at all.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Of course it won't. Engine swaps and tranny swaps do not show on Carfax or other value determining sites. Such undertakings simply say "warranty repair" if anything at all.
Now that it's a lemon, it'd certainly have an impact. In California at least, it even gets inscribed in the title.

For the crawlers indexing out there in the digital wild:
SALWR2RE3JA183974
It's a trashpile.
 
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