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Discussion Starter #1
Okay, so the 2012 I bought back in early February and a few thousand miles ago just left me stuck in a parking lot at work.
I got in, started it up, drove around the parking lot to leave work. Came to a stop at the stop sign where that lot feeds into our perimeter road.
After stopping at the sign, then after pulling out and moving a few yards, the engine rev'd as something lost traction between the engine and final drive.
After coasting to a stop into a parking spot 40 or so feet ahead, I shut it off to see if something would reset.
After starting it back up, I put it in gear. In reverse, it makes a certain whine, not quite a grinding noise; then in drive, it's a different whine, not quite a grind. Maybe as if it's partially engaging somewhere, but not fully(?).
Then putting it into Park, the sound would wind-down to a stop like what ever was spinning didn't particularly want to come to a stop. More like the sound was somewhere between where the gears are selected, and the final drive.
It is moveable in neutral - I had to push it into a space with it in neutral. I didn't check if it can be rolled with it in park or not though.

Any ideas and/or experiences?
Thanks.
 

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Whether or not it will roll with Park selected is highly significant. Perhaps you could check this and report back? This tells us whether the issue lies downstream of the transmission (output shaft, transfer box, prop shaft, final drive, drive shaft) or if it’s the transmission itself.

Phil
 

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Discussion Starter #3
......whether the issue lies downstream of the transmission (output shaft, transfer box, prop shaft, final drive, drive shaft) or if it’s the transmission itself.
Phil
It's not available currently - I called a flatbed and had it towed to the dealership as soon as I could.

I do not recall it rolling fore or aft at all after hoisting it up onto the flatbed and putting it in Park. I may have not noticed it, but I do recall that it felt pretty solid in Park, but did set the parking brake for safety anyway.

If we can assume the Park does keep it put as it should, what does that say? Where in the transmission does the parking pawl fit in? Is it closer to the output? Or more towards the input of the transmission?

I dropped it off at the dealership late Saturday, and haven't heard from them yet. But since it wasn't a scheduled visit, I don't expect them to have a prognosis immediately - I'll expect a day or two before they can push it into the shop and look into it. They did have a few others in the queue ahead of mine.


Which reminds me - I noticed there were no fault indications on the dash/instrumentation until after it happened. Then the yellow engine-shaped icon showed up on the dash. But not until trying to put in gear a second or third time.
 

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The park lock gear is EB welded to the output shaft.







There is a well-known issue with earlier 6HP26 drivelines where the lack of lubrication of the transmission output spline on assembly causes the spline to fail through fretting corrosion. I haven’t heard of it happening on such a late 6HP28, though.



When you’re stationary, the output shaft of the transmission should also be stationary as it’s connected directly to the wheels. If you engage Park and you can hear the parking pawl ratcheting over the park lock gear teeth then this indicates that the transmission output shaft is turning and there is therefore a disconnect somewhere between the park lock gear and the wheels.

Phil
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Thank you, RRPhil-

In that case, it would not be held stationary in Park, would it? Which may be the case, since I didn't specifically try to push it while in Park.

And that does sound as though it could be something internal to the transmission then, doesn't it? If the Park pawl engages and holds the vehicle still, then the drivetrain between the Parking pawl and the wheels would be fine, but the transmission input through the output shaft may be not fully engaging?

At the same time the shifter is changing gears inside the transmission, even if something in there is not engaging all the way. It did go into neutral fine & the different sounds in Drive and reverse.

If it's something down-stream in the final drive, I suspect it would be less in work and cost to "fix". Ideally, it wouldn't be in the transfer case either, maybe the c-clip holding a half-shaft into the differential as I've heard of causing problems(?).

Or even better yet, if it were some sort of transmission/transfer case software-gone-bad that isn't engaging all the way that could be corrected with a re-flash...
But that's certainly too much wishful thinking.

On one hand, I do expect to hear from the dealership today or soon, but at the same time dread what bad news they may have discovered.

That I haven't heard back yesterday, and the longer it takes to hear from them makes me fear the worst even more. But then again I did let the service advisor know that I'm not a customer's that needs them to put my problem in front of all the others that were already there; that I can wait until they get the mechanic that's most familiar with the 6HP28 and 2012 RR to look at it.

Of course another dream outcome would be if they have some service bulletin for what happened, and that LRNA corrects it at their expense. But that's downright absurdly hopeful.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Whether or not it will roll with Park selected is highly significant. Perhaps you could check this and report back?
Phil
Hello Phil-
I was incorrect. I went to the dealership today to check on progress. While there I took the opportunity to see if it rolls while in Park - and it does, most certainly, roll freely while in Park. While pushing it, I believe I was able to hear what could have been the splines slipping within the input of the transfer case.

The dealership also gave me their prognosis of a failed transmission output and transfer case input.

They can repair it with replacement of the transmission and transfer case for about $13,000.

I am constantly amazed by the ways that a Land Rover can break.

Is this transmission repairable? Is there a part number and replacement output shaft available from ZF?
And for the transfer case, can the input shaft be found (other than a scrapped part) and replaced?

How is it than Land Rover can fail so miserably at something like not lubricating this spline set, and when it fails over a relatively short time and normal use, they take no responsibility to make it right?
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Thanks, Rob - actually someone at the dealership mentioned RL Parts to source the parts too, although of course their estimate prices LR parts. They were sympathetic and not proud of the failure. While the dealership appeared to feel and exhibit some humility that the output shaft of the tranny and the input of the transfer case could possibly strip with normal - and what I would say from looking at the shape of this vehicle NEVER being off-road - use, Land Rover apparently has no ownership in it. They only designed and built it, it's not their fault that the spline interface that they never applied anti-corrosive grease to during manufacturing failed after 7 years. It's almost convincing that Land Rover absolutely does NOT want a Land Rover to last beyond 5 years.

I would like to fix it myself, as RRPhil arms us with the confidence and coaching for a moderately mechanically inclined person with reasonable automotive mechanical history to repair the transmissions and Transfer Cases, but then there's the problem of sourcing not only the tranny output shaft, but also an input shaft for the TC. New ones, anyway. And junked part prices are currently to the point where the savings in price is hardly worth the wonder of remaining life.

Between a new replacement transmission from Roverland & rebuilt transfer case from either Roverland or Rock Auto, it would shave roughly $4k off of the repair cost of ~$13k.
I've had many vehicles in my life, and have never seen anything near the failures of basic mechanical assemblies as I have with my RRs. And after hearing that the 2003s were just a bad BMW design, I expected more out of the newer 2012. At least for common things like drivetrain assemblies that have been perfected in hundreds of millions of vehicles of all sizes and all kids of uses.

How much more discouraging can LR products get?
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Not many options, but I do feel I have the responsibility to report the failure to the NHTSA - Department of Transportation. When the drivetrain fails & leaves a driver drifting powerless in traffic, it's a safety issue. And that's where the NHTSA has to know.

If anyone else experiences this and any other failures that put us in situations that compromise our safety, please take a few minutes to submit a safety report here:

https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/VehicleComplaint/
 

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Discussion Starter #10
I have found a few suppliers for rebuilt transfer cases and transmissions.
The only source for a NEW transmission is the dealership.
After speaking with ZF Eriksson yesterday, as I understand it, ZF does not make new 6HP28s, they only rebuild salvaged ones.
So the only option for a completely new one is the LR Dealership.

As for transfer cases, I found a few sources. I also found Cobra Transmission sells the transmission output shaft(<$400), and the transfer case input shaft (<$500).
But at those prices and the cost of other parts to rebuild both, there are reputable rebuild sources to get rebuilt replacements from.

I also contacted LRNA to let them know of the problem, and see if they can offer any relief since it's apparently a fault of their assembly process - lacking the commonly-used spline grease.
As such, I would expect there to be a continuing problem unless they have a campaign to pull the affected RRs into the sop, pull the TC, and inspect, and apply the grease. Not too different from the recall back on the '03s for the front prop shaft.
 

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Here’s a similar story (from a UK forum) for a 2010 model, where the owner tried to get an explanation from Land Rover :
https://www.fullfatrr.com/forum/topic47018.html?

Correct me if I’m wrong but, in your case, we don’t actually know for sure that this is the cause of your failure, although it seems likely. It could still possibly be a transfer box issue, or something else.

Phil
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Here’s a similar story (from a UK forum) for a 2010 model, where the owner tried to get an explanation from Land Rover :
https://www.fullfatrr.com/forum/topic47018.html?
Thank you, Phil. This is insightful info - I'm not expecting LRNA to respond any differently, but unless those of us that have problems 9be it the spline failure or some other cause), the problem be experienced by an unknown number of us and go unknown.

Correct me if I’m wrong but, in your case, we don’t actually know for sure that this is the cause of your failure, although it seems likely. It could still possibly be a transfer box issue, or something else.
Phil
I'm sorry, you are correct. It hasn't been dismantled yet. I've been going on the assumptions of what & how it happened, how it is now and a number of input from others including the dealership mechanic & service advisor that are also familiar with it.
Also after pushing it while in Park on Friday, and hearing what sounded very likely like the splines slipping while I was pushing it, it all seems to be very likely the cause.
And I haven't found anything on the DD295 failing in a way that would fit these characteristics.

Would you consider it a reasonable possibility to have some cause within the TC that gives these same symptoms?

But I am making the assumption, a leap of faith that the problem is what others have found to the same symptoms.

I will certainly make it a point to look at the transmission & TC shafts when they are disconnects, and take pictures.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
https://www.fullfatrr.com/forum/topic47018.html?
...problems 9be it the spline failure or some other cause), the problem be experienced by an unknown number of us and go unknown.
Sorry about that - A technical difficulty while I was posting that.
I meant to say that the problem may be experienced by an unknown number of people, and it would not get the attention it should. Like if the forward prop shaft on the '03 hadn't been reported sufficiently, LR never would have addressed it, and so many of us would be left holding the bill if/when we encountered the failure.

I would like to see if the number of spline failures continue and even increase over time, for what ever MYs that LR neglected to lube the shaft assemblies.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
...we don’t actually know for sure that this is the cause of your failure, although it seems likely. It could still possibly be a transfer box issue, or something else.
Phil
Well it's verified now. The transmission shop has separated the transmission and transfer case and found the spline and spline socket reduced to a pile of rust.

So both the transfer case and the transmission are in for a full rebuild - with them having to be fully dismantled to replace the shafts, may as well refresh while reassembling.

I did hear back from JLRNA, and after they finally contacted the dealership service department they declined to offer any solution or consideration in repairing it, which is fortunate in that it left me no incentive to have it repaired at the dealership. If I had the drivetrain removed and replaced at the dealership, I would have never been sure of the problem. With the independent (but franchised) transmission shop that takes them apart, lets me see them, and will take the time and care to inspect and rebuild them with better quality parts such as bushings and all new parts, I'll feel better. As a matter of fact, I'll get all the retrograde, so I can show those shaft splines to the dealership and any future use, say if a judge or the NHTSA or someone might want to see them for reference or anything.

I will be interested to see if more cases of this problem come up.

But most of all, I look forward to getting it back on the road. It's been out of commission for a month already.
 

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Well it's verified now. The transmission shop has separated the transmission and transfer case and found the spline and spline socket reduced to a pile of rust.

So both the transfer case and the transmission are in for a full rebuild - with them having to be fully dismantled to replace the shafts, may as well refresh while reassembling.

I did hear back from JLRNA, and after they finally contacted the dealership service department they declined to offer any solution or consideration in repairing it, which is fortunate in that it left me no incentive to have it repaired at the dealership. If I had the drivetrain removed and replaced at the dealership, I would have never been sure of the problem. With the independent (but franchised) transmission shop that takes them apart, lets me see them, and will take the time and care to inspect and rebuild them with better quality parts such as bushings and all new parts, I'll feel better. As a matter of fact, I'll get all the retrograde, so I can show those shaft splines to the dealership and any future use, say if a judge or the NHTSA or someone might want to see them for reference or anything.

I will be interested to see if more cases of this problem come up.

But most of all, I look forward to getting it back on the road. It's been out of commission for a month already.
What did this end up costing you? Just curious.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
What did this end up costing you? Just curious.
Well, replacement at the dealership is ~$13k with LR transfer case & transmission.

~$8500 at the dealership with a ZF Eriksson rebuilt transmission & rebuilt transfer case from a couple of possible sources, parts sourced by me.

To (by a local transmission shop franchise) completely rebuild the original units including R&R, I'm expecting it to be a better price than the other options, but I won't sum-up until it's done (to avoid jinxing what the shop & I have discussed so far), with all new parts, better-than-original where applicable, all bearings, bushings, friction plates, solenoids, everything, making it as good as possible. And of course including the most expensive parts, a new output shaft for the transmission and new input shaft for the transfer case.
But I'll know then final verdict in a week or so when it's done.

So far, it looks like the shop it's at is the best alternative, outside of JLRNA accepting at least some responsibility for not using good common practices of greasing the interface when mating the transmission and transfer case shafts, and absorbing at least some of the responsibility to correct the failure.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
It's encouraging that this post of my transmission dilemma isn't getting a lot of responses of posters that share my experience. Hopefully my RR is the exception rather than the rule.

A few pics of the transfer case input shaft and transmission output shaft that failed in my newer RR...

Transfer Case Input:

xfer case input 3.JPG
xfer case input 4.JPG

And Transmission Output:

trans output 5.JPG
trans output 2.JPG

Discouraging in regards to Land Rover design and manufacturing, considering how clean everything else is of this vehicle. From the looks of it I don't think it's ever been off the pavement.
And JLRNA had the opportunity to open it up and look at it while it was at the dealership, and I had an active case at JLRNA for them to consider if they would acknowledge any fault in manufacturing.
Instead, they consider it reasonable for the transmission/transfer case interface to fail at about 7 years and 113k miles, without even looking at it.

flywheel 2.JPG
aft tunnel.JPG

Transmission input splines look pristine without a bit of rusty shavings or dust- big difference from the output shaft:

trans input.JPG
 

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Discussion Starter #18
What did this end up costing you? Just curious.
Picked it up today.
Full transmission & transfer case rebuilds with all Sonnax parts that were available, rebuilt torque converter, zip kit, new solenoids, replacement input & output shafts (of course, since that's what failed) R&R, etc. for just under $6200 + tax = ~$6588 total. Initially I told them to use Pentosin or ZF Lifeguard 7, but they introduced me to the virtues of using Amsoil Signature Multi-Vehicle Synthetic transmission fluid, which meets LT 71141 specs.
 

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Initially I told them to use Pentosin or ZF Lifeguard 6, but they introduced me to the virtues of using Amsoil Signature Multi-Vehicle Synthetic transmission fluid, which meets LT 71141 specs.
I see they want you to be a frequent customer
Just because it meets spec doesn't mean it'll cope well

Use what was designed for the vehicle, or use Ford Mercon SP. It is the same as LG6 but red. For the 6HP26 in the Navigator.

This reminds me of the time when Ford/Lincoln were using LG6 (MerconSP) in their trucks and switched to Mercon LV, a "global" multi-vehicle ATF.

Transmissions were fine...until their life was severely cut short due to the use of non LG6.
 

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<snip>

It's almost convincing that Land Rover absolutely does NOT want a Land Rover to last beyond 5 years.

<snip>
This is not the first time I've heard statements like this. It's almost like it's part of the business model. I mean, car companies primarily want to sell new cars. I'm floored that this kind of failure would happen in '12. I mean it's a model that's been around since '02, you'd think by the 10th year of production they'd have worked out all the manufacturing gremlins.

There's a reason these truck's resale value falls off a cliff.
 
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