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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
2004 Range Rover HSE
130,000 miles

So I have been reading as much as I can on the forum over the past few months, and I have tried a few things to see if I can get my 2004 HSE started again, but no luck. I have a link to a video that shows what happens when trying to start, but first, here are the facts.

- Was driving, stopped at a light. The car just stopped. Couldn't start it. Smoke was coming from the starter after I tried to start it again. Had to have it towed. No warning lights. No check engine. Full of oil. No overheating

- Once I had it towed, it started leaking oil from where the dipstick tube meets the engine. There was a metal plate on top that was lose, I did tighten it, and it seems to have stopped, but there was pressure pushing out oil for a while (it was at a mechanics garage)

- The mechanic said the engine was seized. I decided to tow it back to my house until I figured out what to do. Decided to see if I could manually crank the engine, I can. When facing the engine, I can turn it from left to right, using a large wrench on the nut located at the base of the fan.

- I decided to have the battery checked. Now, the car did sit for a while, so I expected it to be drained, but the batter was bad, it was only 4 months old. I had to get a new one with the warranty.

- I replaced the PCV valve and put in new spark plugs, topped of oil and coolant. Checked all hoses, not other leaks, just wanted to check general maintenance stuff. All good.

- So I decided to replace the starter. Starter done. Still not starting.

- I then brought the battery in to get it charged, they tested it, and the new one I got a month ago was bad as well. I know I can't leave the battery hooked up to the car for a long period of time, which I did unhook it and charged it regularly, but it seems something is draining it. I got another new battery and hooked it up tonight. No start.

When trying to start it with the new battery, I could smell smoke from the area of the starter.

So my questions are:

- Why can I turn the engine manually?
- Is there something killing the battery above and beyond it just sitting there. How long should it be able to sit and not be started before the battery drains?
- Could it be something between the starter and the enigne? The flywheel?

I am just doing this from reading the forums and watching videos. The car isn't worth a new engine, but I really would like to get it working as I have had it only 6 months and was fixing it up inside and out.

Here is the video: https://youtu.be/nq0kx09-BAQ

If you can't tell in the video, when I try to start the car, there is just a click, and then the lights dim, then goes back to normal.

Please let me know any thoughts, ideas, whatever. Obviously a new engine is out of the question, but everything I have read and responses I have received from other posts have said that the engine ins't seized. If it is something else that is reasonable, then I will have it towed. If not, then maybe it's time to part it out.
 

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2002-2005 Range Rover MkIII / L322
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Hi, I'm just wondering whether you were able to turn the engine over through the full cycle, ie remove all spark plugs and turn the engine over manually via from the front flywheel so that it travel through a couple of full cycles? Based on you already replacing the starter and battery and the noise from the video, it does sound to me that your engine is possibly seized..

Best
Darrel
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thanks Darrel. I was able to turn it in one direction with the spark plugs out, clockwise when facing the engine. But not the other way. Don't know if I did it a complete cycle, but can give it a try. Thanks.
 

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It could also possibly be a problem with the torque converter or gearbox. Have you tried starting with the gear lever in N rather than P?

If you have the means to, try lifting all four wheels off the ground, release the handbrake and put the gearbox in N (not P). Then try again to see if the engine will turn on the starter. Be careful as the wheels might start turning, so make sure they are free to do so.

If it does turn over then the problem is indeed with the gearbox or TC. I am guessing a seized TC clutch.

In any event if the engine does not turn immediately turn the key off immediately as you risk burning out your new starter motor.

When you turn the engine manually make sure you turn it in the right direction as some components may be damaged if turned the wrong way.
 

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Yes. Just to be sure - you are in front of the car and looking at the engine then you would see it turning clockwise.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
So yes, I can turn it clockwise, facing the engine. I can turn it multiple times, full turn. I tried putting the car in neutral, but that didn't work. If feels like it's an electrical thing, but I am at a loss. Anything else I can check?
 

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That sort of rules out the possibility of the engine being seized.

Maybe the new starter is also faulty? Can you remove the starter and try it out on a bench - just secure it in a vice and power it directly from a battery with jump leads? That will confirm whether or not it is electrically OK. You will even need to check which direction it turns. Is it new or a reconditioned unit? I have heard of reconditioned starters that were incorrectly wired up and would turn backwards.

PS: I didn't get what engine it is TD6, TDV8, petrol V8?
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
It was such a pain to put in, but I will give it a try. When the starter is off, should I be able to turn the flywheel?
 

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The flywheel is directly attached to the crankshaft, so since you can turn the engine from the front the flywheel will also be turning and it will also be possible to turn the engine directly from the flywheel, though it will be quite difficult because of the limited access.

One thing worth checking is whether there are any broken or damaged teeth on the flywheel and also on the starter pinion.

The pinion is not normally in contact with the flywheel and only engages the flywheel ring when starting. It could be that damaged teeth on the flywheel ring and/or starter pinion would jam and prevent the engine from turning when current is applied to the starter but then once the current stops the pinion retracts and then allows you to turn the engine manually.

When testing the starter on the bench, apart from the pinion turning you should see it rapidly move out to the position where it would engage the starter ring. This movement should be practically instantaneous.
 

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This video may be helpful. It shows the action of the solenoid pushing out the pinion to engage the flywheel. It is not a Range Rover starter in the video, just some generic starter, but the action should be very similar.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WD5Q_PF3pM




You will need to figure out the right connections though. There should be three connections, not including the earth. Unfortunately I could not find a picture of the connections for the V8 I only have this one for the TD6. If they are the same on the V8 you should connect
The battery positive to the large bolt, here labelled C0178.
The battery negative to the casing
Then to activate the solenoid you will apply battery positive also to the one marked C0179 in this picture.


Practice caution and wear safety goggles or better a helmet with safety visor as a short circuit could send flying sparks of hot molten metal.




2015-12-18 22.01.32.jpg
 

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To exclude any relays from the equation you might want to apply the start signal directly to the starter solenoid.

To do this disconnect the two smaller wires, C0823 and C0179 in the photo, put them aside and insulate the ends to make sure they don't contact anything.

Then hook up a short length of wire to the C0179 terminal. With the ignition key turned OFF now apply 12 volts to the wire. This should activate the starter motor and turn over the engine.

If it doesn't turn over release it immediately to avoid overheating it. In this case we can be sure the problem is within the starter motor or its solenoid (which is built into it).

If it does turn over it still won't start, but at this point we just want to see whether or not the starter is capable of turning the engine.

Please be sure that you have a healthy and fully charged battery, the terminals are clean and fully tightened. All that I describe here will be for nothing if the battery is weak or there is a loose connection as that could also result in the starter not turning over.

Check also the earth connection of the engine. If that is not good apart from failing to start it could also cause further damage because the heavy starter current will try to find another way to the negative terminal and damage whatever it goes through. I realise this is something I should actually have mentioned as the first thing to check.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
You think? I know there is a way to access it, and a sound you should hear when turning the engine. But I would think it would at least turn over.
 

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It's not the fuel pump, and are you sure you're turning the engine, and not just the belt?

There is almost no way you have enough tension on your drive belt to turn the crank through a compression stroke using the nut for the fan. To try and turn the engine, you need to use the bolt in the center of the crank pulley.

With your symptoms, I think I agree with the shop's assessment of seized engine. Could possibly be the starter, but that wouldn't have caused it to shut off in the first place.

To check to see if the engine itself is turning while you're turning the fan, remove your oil filler cap, and watch the timing chains as you turn. If they're not moving, then you either aren't turning the crank at all, or the timing chain is broken. You can also watch the crank pulley, if it is stationary then you're just slipping the belt around it as you turn the fan.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Okay, so turned the nut on the base of where the fan is, and while I can turn it, but no, it isn't turning the belt or anything else. I did take off the oil cap and no, the timing chains don't move. So, am I out of luck? Do I scrap the car? I have looked around and a new engine for a 2004 with 130k miles is just not cost effective. Could it be something that can be fixed in the engine possibly (I know you don't know) but is there a chance, or am I getting a new engine.
 
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