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Discussion Starter #1
OK, I've driven the Rover for a few days now after resolving the air ride issue. Now, a new issue as emerged. I am hearing a pretty pronounced/loud licking noise that is based on RPM. I am thinking it is either lifter or an exhaust manifold or head pipe leak. What would be the best way to pin-point the source of the noise? Are there common weak points that may cause this type of noise? It just started today. Most old forum posts are about startup knocking or ticking noises. This is all the time. Obviously, I hear it most at idle but I don't know if it is still there at highway speed.

Some background: The Rover has 118,600 miles on it. The previous owner had the timing chain replaced and oil changed at 117,200 (1400 miles ago). I have the paperwork. I do not know the weight of the oil used other than that it was Amsoil.
 

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Silver Rover and fellow Minnesotan - Can you further isolate the source of the noise and whether it is specific to one or both sides? I had a similar noise on Bank 2, basically where the cam chain tensioner sits. I replaced the tensioner and the noise remained. My RR is basically the same year and mileage as yours and I have performed the same work and double checked it.

Find a hose or plastic pipe and place it to your ear and listen all around the engine and exhaust area to see if you can isolate the noise.

That said I just lived with the noise, let my daughter take the RR for a month and when it came back the noise was gone. She did mainly prolonged highway driving. I was using 0-40W oil which matched the BMW specs (don't recall the brand).

I assume you mean the prior owner had the timing chain guides replaced - and the timing and cam chains.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Hello KG74! What city are you in? I am in the north metro. I met another Rover guy in Brainerd on here as well. I am thinking I should let your daughter take mine for a month, too! LOL

So I pulled out the paperwork. It was from an independent shop in Hutchinson. It is a whole laundry list of items. The biggest items are: Timing chain tensioner, guide, timing chain, tensioner timing hydraulic, and a bunch of gaskets and seals, etc. The whole bill was $3107.17 with labor being about $1300 of it. It looks like they used Amsoil 5w30. They also did an Amsoil detergent flush. You don't suppose it is like a break-in oil and I should change it - do you? It is a redish color. It almost looks like tranny fluid on the dipstick. On the oil change sticker, they wrote down next service due as 10,000 miles from their current service mileage. I would never let it go that long - but the fact that they did that leads me to believe that it probably doesn't need to be changed. Maybe I should just change it and see if the noise goes away? I'll try to isolate the noise but I likely wont have the time until the weekend. It seemed like I could hear the noise loudly from both sides of the engine bay. I bent down and listened and could hear it pretty loudly in both wheel wells. I can also hear it loudly from the top of the engine with the hood open. I was thinking about taking the engine cover off, both tires and the wheel shields off, and see if I can hear anything better and maybe use the plastic pipe method you recommended.
 

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I am down near Southdale. Looks like they did the timing guides and related. As to the oil - you should be fine and I doubt that is the cause of the noise.

I usually change my oil every 5K. You need to do some free investigating before throwing money at your truck. Based on the work you state they did; the heads didn't have to come off nor the exhaust played with so it is unlikely you have a leak there. Still you need to eliminate said items as part of the process. Another problem some have had are spark plugs not being tight enough. Easy to check and doesn't cost anything. Find a hose, plastic pipe and/or a long screw driver or go buy an engine stethoscope and do some listening. I also thought my noise was everywhere until I slowly eliminated and isolated.

You may want to try some YouTube videos and see if you can find one that is similar to yours.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
OK. Thanks. I'll check it out. They do have cylinder head cover gaskets - 2 at $59 each on the invoice.
 

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Silver,

I had a similar situation a few months back. I could hear something like ticking under the hood and in the wheel wells. It turned out to be my water pump bearing starting to go. By moving the fan, i could see some play in it. It wasn't grinding like a usual bad bearing, but i'm sure it would have soon after, if i didn't catch it. Just a thought.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Hi Ryan,

Thanks for the suggestion. I grabbed a fan blade and tried to wiggle it but I didn't notice any play. This weekend I will remove some covers and the wheels/wheel wells and see if I can better pinpoint the origin. I was just hoping to get suggestions and items to look at/ look for. Thanks.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Here is a short video of the engine noise. From searching the web and other videos, I have the following leads: possible loose spark plug(s), belt driven accessory, valve lifter, exhaust leak, loose oil pump. This weekend, I thought I would remove engine covers and see if I can better pinpoint the source. Any more thoughts are appreciated. Thanks.
 

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It may very well be the injectors, but it is anything but normal.

I had the loud ticking on my 2004 4.4L M62 and it was the valves for cylinder 2. I had the heads rebuilt and she's now quit.

I had done a complete timing chains, guides, and Vanos rebuild last winter, hoping it would also solve the ticking sound, but no luck.
 

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Wayne TJ - Interesting post. How did you or the shop go about determining it was the valves? What was wrong with the valves? What kind of miles did you have on the car when the issue reared up?
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Thanks for the responses. I'm not sure what it is. It was quite as a mouse the day before so I know something is wrong. It is very loud - maybe doesn't come through well in the video. I don't dare drive it. It just had the timing chain, guides and tensioner done 1400 miles ago.
 

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It was my diagnosis, as I do my own repairs. The sound was originating from the right side of the engine (bank 1). It wasn't the injectors and I had already replaced the tensioner when I did the guides and chains. The spark plug in cylinder 2 was wet and fouled, indicating a head problem, so I took them off and sent them to a machine shop.

The engine had 136K on it when I bought it, and it had the tick then. I had 148K miles on it when I had the heads done.

Just a side note.... my tick was inaudible to me at 1700 RPMs when reving it in the garage. If the heads didn't fix the problem, I was prepared to remove the catalytic converter and after that ditch the engine.
 

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I knew about the plug fouling from day one of owning the vehicle and suspected that the tick was poor tolerances in the right head. However, the the guides disintegrated on a Sunday morning bagel run and I needed to fix that first. Had that not happened I would have done the heads first. In hindsight I should have done both at the same time.

Penny wise and pound foolish.
 

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That is very good information - Thanks Wayne Tj! This should help in his diagnosis.

Two things - First a leak down or compression test should reveal if the valve is not sealing. As SilverRover will be checking his spark plug torque he will also have full access to looking at the spark plugs for fouling and have what he needs off to do a leak down or compression test.

Related what visually did you see on the bad valve? Excess pitting and/or carbon build up on the stem? Is this something he would be able to see visually if he removes the intake or exhaust manifold or puts a camera into the bore?

Second - On my truck I had done new valve stem seals, cleaned all the valves and lapped the seats so that was not my issue. I am of the opinion mine was most likely a lifter that was not performing properly and the extended miles my daughter put on finally cleared the path and got the oil to flow and pressurize correctly.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Update:

I've been able to determine that the sound is coming from the drivers (left) side bank. I removed the plastic panel covering the coil packs/plugs but couldn't feel any compression/air escaping past the plugs. Kg74, do you think I should still remove the plugs and compression test? I just don't think it is coming from the plugs because to me that would sound similar to an exhaust manifold leak and this doesn't sound like that. This sounds like a mechanical noise. One other thing I've been reading about is loose or blocked oil pumps, particularly after a chain guide replacement. First, I read about the tendency of these pumps to develop loose mounting bolts (which I presume would limit oil flow), then I read about the old timing guide bits plugging up the oil pump intake and limiting flow. Do you think it s worth removing the oil pan/cover and having a look at the pump and pick up tube? If there was a problem with the pump/flow, any idea if the left bank would be impacted first or the most? Or, would it be making noise on both sides, starving for oil?
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Another thought I had was to bring it to the shop that did the timing chain work in case it is a problem with their work. The only issues with that is: 1.) I didn't pay for the work, the previous owner did (1400 miles ago), 2.) it is 2.5 hours away, and 3.) they would probably just tell me it is something else, I'm sure.
 

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Silver Rover: I am going by memory, and I hope another member chimes in, but if I recall one can see the oil pump pickup if one removes just the lower oil pan. The upper is major surgery, but the lower is fairly straight forward. If I recall a bunch of 10mm pan bolts and an oil line on the side.

I would call the shop that did the work and ask what condition the motor was in - did the guides break, did they remove the lower oil pan (I suppose your invoice may have the gasket listed). On my first engine (the car's second) the prior owner ran the guides down to metal. The chunks plugged the pickup and destroyed the motor. You can also ask the shop how familiar they are with the M62 - if they are good I think you can eliminate poor work.

As to the oil pump if I recall correctly you can do everything needed by removing the lower oil pan - the only thing you cannot do easily (I have read some have been able) is to adjust the oil pump chain tension. You cannot remove the pump as the upper pan is in the way. I don't think this is your issue, but it wouldn't hurt to look. The pump is pretty robust and you can ask if they took it apart.

But before going there I would do a compression test or a leak down test. This will tell you if you have the problems the other member had regarding his valves not seating. It is not very difficult and is the least intrusive test you can perform. All you have to do is remove the injector and then the spark plug.

Did you sound test with a hose or similar to further isolate the source of the sound? Is it all the valves or just a few? If you can limit it to just a few you can do a leak down test on only these valves.

Other than a valve not performing correctly it could be a lifter that is not functioning right. This could be caused by debris from the prior owner running the engine down to the guides - the tiny little sparkles plugging up the lifter. As I said before I think this is what was the issue on mine, and time and use cleared it up. Looking back I should have gone through each lifter and took them apart and cleaned them or just replaced them. Asking the shop the condition of the motor when it came in will tell you. If it had no metal sparkle then I don't think the lifter is your issue.

Final option is to put some added detergent (Seafoam, Lucas, Mystery Oil) and run it for a 1000 miles and do an oil change. Maybe it will dissolve the blockage in the lifter if that is your problem.

Circling back - a compression/leak down test would not be a bad place to start.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Kg74, Thanks for responding. I just replaced two quarts of oil for MMO. No change yet but I know you need to have it in for a while. I was about to attempt a compression test but realized I must have loaned out my tester to someone. All I found in its spot was the manual! lol. Anyway, i removed the coil pack and noticed that the cavity for the spark plug has a significant amount of oil in it. It is not all the way up to where the coil pack attaches but quite a puddle in there. I am a little surprised by this because this Rover doesn't leak any fluids on the ground. Anyway, I pulled out the first plug and the center electrode is even with the ceramic. Now, I'm not experienced with these plugs that have 4 side electrodes so maybe they are different. I do know that on a common plug, the center electrode should extend past the ceramic. Maybe these plugs are worn out? I am guessing this can't cause the noise problem but one more thing to do if they are worn out.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
I just found pictures of new NGK BKR6eQUP (the plugs that are in here) on the NET, it looks like the center electrode is supposed to be even with the ceramic. That said, I am noticing that there is oil trapped between the ceramic and the metal based that the socket sits on. Just to be safe, I am going to swap these oil filled plugs with the used ones found in my parts Rover. They are Bosch plugs in the parts one.
 
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