Hi I am looking for some help. My 2003 RR L322 needs new guides, since I am going to have the entire front cover off can someone advise me on what I should change? I know there are some parts that does not go bad so any insight would be helpful.
As a number of forum members have learned - timing guide failure could also mean the block is destroyed. Ordering parts before investigating the block's condition could be a waste of money. In my first reply I asked a few questions to help you proceed.
Thanks KG74. So the answers to your questions:
Guides Status: I found several pieces of guide in my oil pan when I removed it.
Leaks: Yes from the valve cover, front lower timing cover.
Special Tools: I have the camshaft alignment tool, multimeter.
I plan to work on the vanos since I will have access to it, I am not sure if it is malfunctioning but there was a clunking noise which suddenly started during startup. With the clanking noise and the the plastic pieces found in the oil pan I decided to change the timing chain, guides, seals, tensioners and reseal vanos.
I am not sure what brand parts I should use for this job. Since it's such a time consuming I would prefer to use reputable parts and input is welcomed.
Also the clunking was checked by a reputable mechanic and he stated it was the vanos. The engine ran perfect with no misses or hesitation. The clunking was annoying though.
Based on your information before going any further you need to check the condition of your block. Some in your situation (myself being one of them) have found that the block suffered severe gouging as a result of the timing guide failure. In my instance the prior owner let the failure go too long and oil starvation caused by plastic timing guide rail pieces restricting the flow of oil to the cylinders (in addition small metal fragments ("metal sparkle") which were also found(prior owner ran the RR so long after failure the chain was grinding through the aluminum guide rails - the plastic being worn through) resulted in severe cylinder wall scoring and gouging. You need to look for this before going any further.
I suggest you look for metal sparkle in the oil - you may have seen this when you dropped the oil pan. With the oil pan removed you need to look at the piston skirts and corresponding cylinder walls for scoring and gouging. It is not easy, but if you look carefully and rotate the engine you can see at least half of the walls. Finally if you have a camera scope you can drop it through the spark plug hole and look at the walls (mirror attachment). Look up my posts and member "Rovah" posts on the subject as we have both posted on this issue. Once you are sure your block is not damaged you can start ordering parts. You should also look at the bottom of your oil filter housing with filter removed and look for metal sparkle collection. This is not a good sign. From above, with the valve cover removed, you should look in the small puddles that collect in various parts of the head for metal sparkle - another bad sign. Your oil filter should have stopped this, but this is not always the case. If you find any and your block is good you need to spend time cleaning everything up - really clean. I can provide further comments as needed as you post updates.
Make sure you clean out your oil pick up screen of any plastic fragments. Small pieces can get wedged in there.
Assuming all is well you have two ways to approach the guide replacement - minimum spend and maximum spend.
Maximum spend would be to do all the rails, chains, cam chain tensioners, timing chain tensioner, o-rings, check valves, the metal vanos seals on cam shafts, new vanos (2) and all gaskets including oil pan and valve cover. You should also consider doing your valley pan, water pump and related, serpentine belt and pulleys, PCV system, intake gaskets, injector o-rings, throttle body gasket ... Basically everything on the top end. The added labor is minimal, but the parts can really add up.
Minimum spend would be to do the cam chain tensioner shoes and sealing o-ring, the three chain guides, timing chain tensioner and rebuild your vanos plus any gaskets that have been disturbed (Upper and lower timing guide cover gaskets, valve cover). I would also do the valley pan (use URO brand) if this has not been serviced. With this approach you are leaving many items undisturbed. Doing the chains is excluded here.
Essentially you are proceeding with the belief that the vehicle's components, other than the chain guides, were designed to go 300k or more miles. So you are changing only disturbed gaskets and o-rings and the failed parts. You are doing the vanos as they are showing signs of failure. You may be doing the valley pan as it always fails around your mileage plus you have everything off.
Look at the Beisan link it is a good reference both for procedure and parts. It has one replacing many additional items than necessary. Also look at RAVE - RAVE is also very well written and it tells you what small part to replace when doing the job. It does not include certain items - so it is on the bare minimum side. RAVE focuses more on changing just the failed component(s).
Until you actually start removing parts and seeing their condition it is hard to judge what to replace. You also need to consider your budget, prior service history and factor this in. Personally having done it three times, I would think you can get buy with bare minimum plus Vanos rebuild and valley pan. One way to approach the project is to break the project up into two pieces: Piece one is items inside the timing guide covers and item two is pieces outside the timing guide covers. Your problem right now is inside the timing guide covers, but to get there you have to take off many items outside. It is always easiest when things are off to replace, but the costs add up.
Good input! I will take a look for metal particles I don't recall seeing any in the oil pan but I'll know for sure with a magnet. I do believe I caught the problem in the beginning stages, hopefully that will work in my favor. Will keep you updated on any developments. Thanks for the input!
I do not think a magnet will help as the guides are aluminum covered in plastic/teflon. the chain I can see through the oil filler cap on ours is shiny on the top edges but likely has lost very little in metal particles of a size you could see. Perhaps there would be ferrous metal paste in areas that accumulate oil but are not washed out with oil spray. I am getting close also so a great primer on what to do and specifically to check the block. And kg did your oil appear carboned or did it stay clean even with the scores. Our oil after 3-4000 miles has changed colour a bit but you see nothing but a bit of colour when placing drops on a white tissue.
The best place to look for metal sparkle is in the pan when the oil is drained. Next would be the bottom of the oil filter housing - open it up, remove the filter and look at the oil that pools in the bottom. A properly functioning oil filter should stop all metal sparkle. Assuming your block is fine, if you see some in the filter housing you will have to clean it up - may be worth removing the entire unit and flushing everything including the lines. Next place to look is in the small pools of oil and sludge that collect in various places of the head - this means the metal sparkle got past the oil filter. When you pull the valve cover you will see what is meant.
Of course like diff mentions - visual inspection for shinny wear spots will tell you how long and how much the Rover chewed into various engine parts/guides.
On engine #2, my first engine, which was completely destroyed, the guides were 100% gone and they showed chain wear. Various other places had wear including the bottom and both top chain covers. Metal sparkle was found every where I mentioned above. My theory on cause of failure was oil starvation and then maybe cylinder wash due to continued attempts to start. When looking up at the piston skirts and rotating the engine (with the lower oil pan removed) visual gouging was noticeable. Upon removal of the cylinder head it was horrible.
On engine #3, it died of cylinder wash and this engine was in bad shape as it burned plenty of oil. Removal of the oil pan and examination of the cylinder walls from below revealed gouges. Metal sparkle in the oil and in the bottom of the oil filter housing - but no signs of metal sparkle in the head.
Metal sparkle past the oil filter is not a good sign. All of that contamination is now everywhere. When taking apart salvaged parts from Engine #2 I found the crud in the lifters when I broke them down and in the check valves. So if your engine condition is this contaminated you may want to really do a rinse of the block, clean out or replace the check valves and lifters. Maybe replace the cam chain tensioners and timing chain tensioner (or take them apart and clean them) - plus dismantle and clean the oil pump. Then do a run with cheap oil for 100 miles with a fresh filter, drain/change and depending on what you find repeat. If the engine block is good - you really need to get out as much metal sparkle as possible so it doesn't mess up the check valves and tensioners. A quality oil filter will catch everything that goes through it - but some of the crud sticks to sludge that almost every engine of higher mileage has. As it has passed the filter already it will move around a bit until it gets washed into the oil stream and caught in the filter.
So answering your question diff - I cannot really say as engine #2 was beat on beyond dead and engine #3 was abused when installed. I wish I knew this when I bought it. As to Engine #4 which I am currently redoing the vanos/timing on because the Bank 2 Vanos bolt loosened (another issue which should be researched as it is not uncommon) my oil with similar useage mileage but no scoring and good compression and leak down results is as you describe. The filter should protect the engine - so examine the places I mentioned.
So I removed the oil filter and oil pan. I found several bits of broken chin guides in the oil pan along with fine particles of what seems to be metal. I did not find any traces of metal particles in the oil filter housing. I also checked the pockets of oil in the heads and I did not find any particles or rough feeling in the oil as I rubbed it on my finger. Is there anything else I should check that was missed from what I mentioned here? It appears the internal part of the engine was not compromised (Thank heavens). What are your suggestions for moving forward?
One other question I am having a hard time removing the crankshaft pulley is there a special tool? I tried using the top dead center pin but it broke. I assume there is a lot of tension on the bolt.
Get a flash light, get under the car, and look at your piston skirts and the bottom of the cylinder walls. It is not easy but provides some information. Rotate the engine and repeat - you will not be able to see all the cylinders but you can see some of them. Eliminate gouging now so you are not rebuilding a destroyed block.
To remove the crank bolt - it is a beast. What I did was make a crank holding bar out of some thick wide metal stock I had. I used the removed crank pulley as a template to grind out the area for the crank and to drill three holes for attachment. For length I made it long enough so that it would hit the ground at an angle while being attached to the crank. Then I used a 3/4" breaker bar with a 3/4" socket of the right size (27mm???) plus a four foot fence post as a cheater bar. With some effort I got it to turn. The weight of the Rover keeps the crank holder from spinning and the Earth keeps it set. DO NOT rest it on oil pan - others have broken theirs. Some have it rest on the frame, with a wood block. Finally, some use the starter and the frame rail with their breaker bar with success and no damage (not for me). Using the crank alignment pin has been hit and miss - for you it has been a miss. The pin is for timing alignment/lock - not for bolt removal.
I'll try to rig up something to help break the crank bolt. I hear about using the starter but that sounds questionable, If I can get the pulley to stay stationary I know the bolt will come loose with a cheater bar. Since I already drained the oil is it wise to try and turn the crank to see the cylinders? I don't want to cause any damage by having bare metal rubbing against each other.
Regarding turning the crank - without the engine running you have no oil save for what is clinging to places. The oil pump is not working and if the engine has squirters (don't recall" those are also not spraying. So - rotating the engine is the same as required to do your timing. If you fear cylinder wash than you can put a cap full in each cylinder hole, let it sit a bit and then rotate. I think you will be fine.
Today I took a look at the top of the engine and lower crankshaft I did not see any damage or metal fragments the filter must of been doing its job. I am going to start working on a makeshift tool to remove the crank bolt if any one has a template please share. I will keep everyone up to speed on the progress as it happens, lately my time has been limited so I have not been able to work on the Rover as much as I would like to. Any other suggestions on tackling this job please share it's important to me since I am a newbie. Thanks to everyone who shared their input this far.
The one I made is similar to the second picture in post #5. I did not use angle iron - I used 1/4" thick 2" wide steel stock which I had laying around. Wider would be better. I fashioned mine so I could get four bolts in. As I said before the final length was set up for the holder tool to hit the ground with the wheels on height. You can break the bolt loose and then set your timing, but torquing it to spec on install needs to be considered. The crank pulley is keyed so you will not lose timing.
I have done this a few times. Fortunately not on the L322 yet. But its the same on the 740's and 540 BMW's. Look up E38 timing chain guide replacement and on bimmerforums there is an awesome step by step guide with pictures etc. I also own the vanos locks, cam locks, tensioner tool and Jesus bolt removal tool. Even with the Jesus bolt tool plan on a 6ft bar over your Snap-on 3ft breaker and two guys hanging on it. I have heard a 3/4" impact works, but never tried it. I bent a Harbor Freight 3/4" breaker doing the first one. (pics if needed ...lol). Let me know if you need any of these goodies and I'm sure we can work something out. I have sent them around the country a few times to various DIY'er's like myself. They are several hundred bucks for all of them - but as me and a buddy both needed guides done a couple of years ago we got them. Overall parts should be around 900.00 with around 40hrs labor - hence the reason this costs about 4500 even at an indie shop.
I might take you up on borrowing the tools. I am at a stand still until the crankshaft bolt is removed, this is very frustrating. I'll keep looking for the bolt removal tool, hopefully I can find one that ships rather quickly. Thanks guys for the input thus far, once I am able to move forward I'll keep everyone up to speed on my achievements.