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Discussion Starter #1
Hi guys,

I am down in New Zealand and have a 2002 Range Rover with the ZF 5hp24 trans. On Monday it decided to thump in to drive and then lock itself in Failsafe Mode. Which of course was perfect timing as I had to move house 400 km North this week, so ended up getting vehicle transported to new City.

I am a mechanic and here is a quick run down of the story:

1. Bought at 64,000 km
2. Auto oil and filter replaced at 70,000 km, with proper Esso fluid and genuine filter. Managed to get around 7 litres in.
3. Radiator replaced at 120,000 km due to coolant leak, trans oil cooler is in the rad yes?
4. Vehicle has done 140,000 km almost on the dot and I had done around 100km in the morning, absolutely NO signs of anything different, drove perfect.
5. Picked up empty trailer, drove 25km, stopped at work and left vehicle running for around 20 mins, went to pull away and it moved and then lost drive before THUMP and then Failsafe Mode and stuck in 4th/top gear. This resets with key off but just repeats the process.
6. Had codes read on vehicle and had(from memory now so not exact words) 1. Internal slip mechanical failure 2. Incorrect gear ratio
7. Started it next morning cold and vehicle drives perfect until it gets remotely warm, so I checked oil level and condition and was slightly dark/burnt looking.
8. Drained oil but left filter in, managed to get around 5 litres back in but has made no difference to function.

So......... anyone have any ideas? I have dropped it at a trans specialist today who will get back to me on Monday as he says even with the above failures logged it could still be an electrical fault along the lines of a speed sensor??

Should I need to take it out, luckily my new boss is a top guy and we will be removing it on one of his brand new hoists in his new workshop :dance: . I would just order all the bits from UK/USA, as parts prices in NZ are verging on ridiculous, and would undertake the rebuild myself. Auto trans are new to me though, I am a VW/Audi Tech and have tried to steer away from the Auto internals, but with my own money it is slightly different. `)

Any help much appreciated.
Barry.
 

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2002-2005 Range Rover MkIII / L322
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I had an odd one recently where I had this issue for a day (no big thump though). It's not returned so was probably an electrical gremlin.

Whilst researching it seems the transfer box motor & ecu can cause all sorts of problems. Do a search for "Trans failsafe" or just "Failsafe" and you will see replies from others, as well as very detailed replies from RRphill who is a legend. Some of the replies sound as if they are similar to your own description.

Personally if I were in your situation and if finances allowed I would look at buying a second hand or recon' box and have it shipped to you and installed, then rebuild the failed box at a more convenient time.

Dan
 

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Hi Barry,

Sorry to hear about your plight & I apologise for not responding to your PM but I’ve been away from home and my computer all week.

As Dan has mentioned, the transmission failsafe message can be triggered by a number of faults which may not even be directly related to the transmission itself e.g. the transfer box shift motor issue.
However I think that both the fluid temperature dependency of your problem and also the ‘thump’ that you’re feeling are more likely to be caused by a seal issue than an electrical/speed sensor issue and the symptoms do sound remarkably similar to previous transmissions I’ve repaired where the static ‘O’-ring between the input shaft and the B clutch drum had failed. I suspect that when ZF successfully stiffened up the A clutch drum in 2001 to prevent the snap ring groove failures this seal became the next weakest point in the system.



I suspect that your A clutch cannot generate sufficient pressure to react the torque it’s transmitting, the ECU therefore selects ‘limp home’ (TRANS FAILSAFE PROG) in response to the measured slip and it tries to lock you in 4th. Unfortunately the A clutch is used in 4th gear as well as 1st, 2nd & 3rd so the ECU has no alternative other than to try for 5th which is the ‘thump’ that you’re feeling.

Clearly the replacement of the ‘O’-ring requires the transmission to be dismantled & rebuilt but it’s dead easy to do and I’d be happy to help out in any way I can (hey, you’re only 12,000 miles away :) ) with advice, etc. My only problem is that I’m away again next week, so unfortunately I wouldn’t be able to help out at all until Monday 30th.

Obviously you’ll need the overhaul kit :



The only thing missing from the kit is the rear seal - 14.010/140 in the diagram (the one included in the kit fits the Jag. & BMW variants of the 5HP24 but not L322). You may also need new A clutch friction plates but you won’t know for sure until you can inspect them.

Phil
 

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I read about these failures with little or no warning and it makes me nervous. I'm tempted to keep watch on ebay for used transmissions cheap and just get one and do an overhaul on it as time permits so that it could be ready and waiting if mine ever failed... but then I'd have to store it and it may not be good to let it sit unused for that long.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Hi Phil,

Thanks for the amazing reply, don't worry about the PM, I knew you would be busy and I am in no MAJOR rush as I am also away next week and do have other transport(but it's just not the same you know :D ).

Sounds like that seal is my problem I would say, would be great if I could fix it for the price of that rebuild kit. Although as I am so far away :mrgreen: I had though of ordering the major stuff and just doing a replacement of clutches etc too. From searching the forum I have seen you list a FULL rebuild would be about 670GBP in parts that is roughly $1400NZ, well the closest I have had to a fix here in NZ was a 2nd hand trans at $3800 with my old tran in exchange. And who is to say that won't do the same straight after??

Once I decide to take the box out and apart, is there any way I could get you to source the relevant parts, if you are not willing to then that is no worries, my parents still live in Glasgow so they could contact the relevant places and send them to me. If you could just tell me where is best to get them?

Thanks very much,
Barry.
 

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2002-2005 Range Rover MkIII / L322
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There is a complete box on eBay UK for £750, but obviously you take a bit of a gamble with that.

D
 

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Discussion Starter #8
It'd probably cost me the same again for freight to New Zealand haha.

I know my gearbox was running perfectly, and I also know it has had oil changes in past etc, would rather fix what is wrong and keep on trucking!! :dance:
 

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Is there a part number that an upgrade 'fix' was carried out by BMW that one can check as tis a worrying state of affairs.
I am new owner of a 2003 L322 with a replacement box in situ.
Be good to know if one could check if its an upgrade or no.

Good luck with your plight tho

Bill
 

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Hi Barry,

It’s a shame you’re so far away as I have three 5HP24 transmissions in my garage at the moment which I’m currently rebuilding :)

I tend to use JPAT in Somerset for my ZF spares (http://www.jpat.co.uk/) but you mentioned that your parents live in Glasgow? Mackie’s (who are at 95 Causewayside Street, Tollcross, Glasgow) are a highly respected ZF transmission repair shop and they’re also an official ZF parts dealer. Maybe you could persuade your folks to collect the parts and post them off to you?

There’s also Sussex Autoparts (http://www.sussexautos.co.uk/zf-car-parts.php), Automatic Choice in Kidderminster (http://www.automaticchoice.com/) and Vanmatic in Middlesex (http://www.vmtp.com/), all of whom are official ZF spare parts dealers. Needless to say that, apart from the odd gasket & lip seal, none of the parts are available from a Land Rover dealer because they don’t allow their technicians to strip & rebuild automatic transmissions.

If your parents aren’t so keen you could maybe contact JPAT (or any of the others) and see if they’ll ship parts to New Zealand? If not, I’d be happy to source the parts and send them out to you.

You need :

1058 298 022 – Overhaul kit
0734 313 181 – Output shaft O-ring
0734 319 520 – Shaft seal

The complete friction plate kit for all six clutches is 1058 298 015, or alternatively for the A-Clutch only you need 6-off 1058 270 028

Finally I would strongly recommend that you buy a replacement ‘B-clutch hub to C-clutch drum’ axial needle bearing (p/n 1058 202 016) as, in my experience, these commonly wear & fail in the L322 transmission. The bearing only costs around £6.

Phil
 

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BOFABill said:
Is there a part number that an upgrade 'fix' was carried out by BMW that one can check as tis a worrying state of affairs.
I am new owner of a 2003 L322 with a replacement box in situ.
Be good to know if one could check if its an upgrade or no.
Bill,

The 5HP24 transmission was launched in 1996 in Jaguars & BMWs and a couple of problems came to light after a few years – namely the A-clutch drum snap ring groove failures and the F-clutch piston seal wear. ZF sorted these problems before the L322 was introduced.

By 2002 when the L322 first became available, Jaguar and BMW had (or were in the process of) switched to the 6-speed ZF ‘box and we Range Rover V8 owners were therefore the last people still using this particular transmission. The change to the 6-speed unit didn’t of course happen until ‘06MY in the L322.

Many of our ’02-’05 Range Rovers are clocking up 100,000 miles and beyond and transmission problems are now starting to emerge. There is therefore no recognised fix for them. The dealers simply swap the transmissions out for re-manufactured ones.

The failures of the GM 5L40-E transmission fitted in the ’02-’05 Td6 are another story.....

I personally think that the 5HP24 is a strong, durable transmission and I’ve stripped several high-mileage Range Rover units which have all been in fantastic mechanical condition, ready for another 100,000 miles of use once a replacement seal has been fitted. I don’t therefore wish to alarm people into thinking that they’re sitting on a time bomb and that transmission failure is inevitable (unless you own a 5-speed Td6 where, of course, it is `) ). I guess time will tell if this particular seal problem, and the consequential A-clutch slip, is going to turn out to be a common reason for failure on the early V8 transmissions. I’d say it was still far too early to tell.

I should also point out that it isn’t confirmed yet whether this is indeed what is causing Barry’s transmission problem!

Phil
 

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Phil, Thanx for the informed reply.
Yes I have a 2003 5 speed TD6 and noo worried.
The gearbox on my car can be that old, or re manufactored, is ther any way of checking its age?
The car has done 120k and engine sounds sweet.

should I worry?
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Phil, I actually know exactly where Mackies is yes, used to pass there regularly. `)

I will await the scan on Monday and then if needs be I will take the box apart and order the bits.

On the clutches, in your experience would I be better off stripping box and checking them before ordering? I assume they are heavy and hence I don't really want to pay postage if I don't need them. Although I almost feel like I should just do them anyway if I am in there..........

Can you give rough pricing on the parts you listed too so I know what I am in for:

1058 298 022 – Overhaul kit
0734 313 181 – Output shaft O-ring
0734 319 520 – Shaft seal
The complete friction plate kit for all six clutches is 1058 298 015
A-Clutch only you need 6-off 1058 270 028
‘B-clutch hub to C-clutch drum’ axial needle bearing (p/n 1058 202 016) - £6
 

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barry said:
Phil, I actually know exactly where Mackies is yes, used to pass there regularly. `)
Great :)

barry said:
I will await the scan on Monday and then if needs be I will take the box apart and order the bits.
Fingers crossed that it's maybe not as serious as we're currently supposing

barry said:
On the clutches, in your experience would I be better off stripping box and checking them before ordering? I assume they are heavy and hence I don't really want to pay postage if I don't need them. Although I almost feel like I should just do them anyway if I am in there..........
I know what you mean - if you have the transmission apart anyway it would make sense to replace all the plates at the same time. However, I usually find that there's nothing wrong with the plates as the ECU has done it's job of preventing the clutches from slipping beyond their power dissipation limits. I've usually only had to replace A-clutch plates in L322 transmissions in the past (with the odd exception). I'd be tempted to wait and see what you find if/when you strip the transmission (provided the shipping times to New Zealand are reasonably fast)

barry said:
Can you give rough pricing on the parts you listed too so I know what I am in for:
1058 298 022 – Overhaul kit = £136
0734 313 181 – Output shaft O-ring = pennies?
0734 319 520 – Shaft seal = £9
1058 298 015 - Complete friction plate kit for all six clutches = around £200
1058 270 028 (6-off) - Individual A-Clutch friction plates = 6 x £6 = £36
1058 202 016 - ‘B-clutch hub to C-clutch drum’ axial needle bearing = £6

So for the overhaul kit + extra seals + bearing you're looking at just over £150.

Were you thinking that you could maybe reuse the filter & fluid?

Phil
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Thanks Phil, and thanks for the PM :thumb:

No way will I re-use fluid and filter. Luckily I work on VW/Audis and I have 12 litres of the Esso fluid stockpiled that I get at cost so it will all be fresh and clean.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Well the news is the same as I thought, internal fault.

Got it back and will take the trans out in the next couple of weeks and then start a strip down...... :mrgreen:

I will try and remember to take pictures and update this thread.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Well RRPhil is an absolute bloody legend.

Exactly as he said, the taper rollers had come away from the bearing and the A to B o-ring had split!!! :dance: :dance: Clutch packs all look great, I might do the A clutch plates anyway but that's it.

1058 298 022 – Overhaul kit = £136
0734 313 181 – Output shaft O-ring = pennies?
0734 319 520 – Shaft seal = £9
1058 270 028 (6-off) - Individual A-Clutch friction plates = 6 x £6 = £36
1058 202 016 - ‘B-clutch hub to C-clutch drum’ axial needle bearing = £6

I am so happy I never paid the $4k for a rebuild I was quoted.

I will probably get my dad to get a new filter in Glasgow too and send the whole lot out together.

Will update when I get it back in the car!!! :thumb:
 

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That’s good news Barry. Presumably it’s a huge hassle/expensive getting your torque converter re-manufactured because of its weight (unless you can get it done locally?) so were you thinking you’d just risk it & stick the old one back in?

Phil
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Phil,

Sorry, I somehow missed your post. I hadn't planned on doing torque converter no, would you advise it? There are people here that do it but not sure on cost.

Got all my bits from Mackie in Glasgow including A clutches and the new filter for 200GBP all in. :mrgreen:

So now just waiting on my Mother posting them over with a few other bits(K04 Turbo kit for my 2006 Golf GTi :dance: ).

Barry
 
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