[MadeInEngland]

Hi.
Just looking for a heads up.

Have the Front Passenger Window gone faulty on me some week ago.
Bucked up the courage to take the door apart to look into it.

Thought I might have found the problem with a 'loom' of relays looking quite wet laying in the bottom of the door sill. Looks like at some point in the past they have been drilled off the door frame. (Assuming that's where they where factory fitted)

However not so sure if its a case of just straight replacement Relays and fit them in a better postion.
Not having a wiring diagram, have no idea to check inputs/outputs etc.
Also the power connecter to the motor had a bit of insulation removed, either by chafing or a previous owner checking voltages, etc.

When I press the Window DOWN Button I get a click from one of the relays. But NO Voltage on the Grey Motor Leads. However, on depressing UP I also get a click from the relay and 6.5V on the Grey White lead.
As I said not having a wiring diagram I am just assuming the relays are the problem.
However, I find it strange to not see where the two Grey Power leads to the motor are coming from. Is there another terminal/unit behind the galvanised panel ?
Any help greatly appreciated.

Mike

 

[Richard_G]

What the hell is all that crap in there? The relays and that extra wiring isn't standard, someone has been there getting involved in some serious bodgery. It looks like they have also bypassed the door outstation and made a very simple circuit incredibly complicated. Does everything else, central locking, mirror adjustment work on that door?

 

[MadeInEngland]

Cheers Richard for the reply.
Well done in detailing and spotting the 'bodger'.
I spent about 1 hour trying to figure out where the wiring loom and relays where originally installed. Assumed it was along the bottom of the door with the corresponding holes.

As correctly summarised:-
YES, previous owners had bypassed the central console Arm Rest Control Box.
Set up a Switch Matrix in the Radio Postion.
(Also, the Sunroof /Cabin Light Panel) with switches and buttons for Door Locks, Windows and Mirrors and a couple I haven't figured out.

Passenger Window was working until a few weeks ago
Passenger Electric Mirror was working and only realised today it isn't.

Also :-
The Sun Roof stopped working about 9 months ago and I closed it manually. Not been too bothered about sorting that one out until todays undertaking.
Exact same problem in pressing the Open / Close buttons I can feel the relays clicking but seems no power to the motor.

Thanks again for looking
Mike

 

[MadeInEngland]

Oh, by the way I put the Yellow Tie Wrap on in order to lift it out of the damp door base and let it dry.

 

[Richard_G]

Chances of sorting that lot out are somewhere between nil and never. Presumably the previous owner didn't leave you a complete wiring diagram for it? Returning it to normal is going to be a big job anyway (although you could get a few quid back by weighing in the scrap wire you'll pull out of it) as you've no idea how much of the original wiring is still there and why someone decided to butcher it like that in the first place. It may be that they simply spilt a drink into the switchpack so that needed washing out at best or replacing with a used one at worst. You should have a bundle of wires from the BeCM and switchpack that go to the door outstation then a door loom that would go between the outstation and mirror, door locks and window mech but you don't know if the original power and data lines from the switchpack and BeCM are still there. Window mech would normally have 6 wires from it (the black plug), 2 back to the BeCM and 4 to the outstation, no relays at all.

I recently retired after over 40 years in communications and electronics but I'd consider that one a challenge to take on......

 

[Richard_G]

My advice would be to rip it all out, see how much of the original wiring you have left and see if you can find a car in a breakers to steal the looms and bits you are going to need to put it back as it should be. Then all you need to do is find the original fault and fix that.

 

[Escape]

My advice would be to rip it all out, see how much of the original wiring you have left and see if you can find a car in a breakers to steal the looms and bits you are going to need to put it back as it should be. Then all you need to do is find the original fault and fix that.

As above. Trying to sort out a bodge like the one you've got will be a hard an very frustrating job. If at all possible, restore to original with second hand parts. Those should be easy enough to find. If that is not viable (because too much has been removed/ hacked up), I'd start from fresh instead of trying to sort out somebody else's bodgework. Window lift requires only a fairly simple circuit, plenty of examples to be found retrofitting relays to classic cars to have less current going through the actual switches. But you do need a minimum of electrical skill (especially understanding how stuff works) to tackle it.

Filip

 

[MadeInEngland]

Cheers Guys.
"WOW"!
Seems I have a job on my hands if I want to get that window working.
Yeah, no diagrams or marking on any parts. So a right nightmare.

I love the car and had it my mind as a 'Keeper'.
So will put the Door Panel back on and look around for a Wiring Loom / Switches.

Was hoping it was a case of Power going to the Relays then it was a 'simple' as checking and output direct to the motor. Seems not.
As previously stated, I have no idea where the 2 x Grey Power leads to the Motor come from. So need to look into that

Will have a look On Line to find where the BeCM (Control Module?) is. Then work on from there.

Two Though Proceeds for me to play with :-

In my own mind I think I need to find where the Power Source comes from for the Motor (Grey White/Brown Cables).
The Two relays that where in the Door Sill and very WET. (Therefore, the initial thought of the main fault)
As there seems to be an input to them which of the 5 Circuits should be and output.

Thanks again for taking time to reply.
All the best....

Mike

 

[Richard_G]

Power SHOULD arrive at the motor on the Grey/Green and Grey/White wires, the two thick ones that someone has been probing but they would get their power from the door outstation. Power one way round makes it go up and the other way round makes it go down. How the system should work is that the switchpack sends a data signal to the BeCM (the Body Electrical Control Module, the big alloy box under the drivers seat that incorporates a fuse panel, has 17 multiway connectors plugged into it and controls all body electrical functions) telling it which window you want to open or close. The BeCM then sends a data signal to the correct door outstation and instructs it to supply power to the window motor. The same with the mirrors, switchpack tells the BeCM, which then instructs the door outstation to move the mirror. For central locking, the BeCM instructs the door outstation to lock or unlock the doors after receiving a valid security signal from the RF receiver that has been transmitted by the remote fob. Presumably you don't have working fobs either, are having to use the key in the lock to lock and unlock and that only does the one door and doesn't trigger the central locking?

I would like to think whoever subjected your car to this butchery fitted fuses but where he put them or even where he picked up power from is anyone's guess. For a full factory workshop manual, including the diagrams and electrical troubleshooting manual, see the link in the FAQ sticky at the top of this page and download RAVE, the factory manual.

 

[MadeInEngland]

Thanks Richard for taking the time and effort to look into my 'issue'.

Just back home...

Just an update FYI

Spurned on with the posts from this groups members I had a bit more confidence to look into the areas as highlighted this afternoon.

You are all correct in detailing the 'Butchery' that has at some point been undertaken on this beauty. I think what is more upsetting is that at the time no effort was not taken to at the very least mark or diagram the circuitry. Even my basic elementary fault finding I started to label mark the relevant components.

Further to your previous posts, I decided to look further into my problems.

1. Turns out the "BeCM" has been removed and replaced by two fuse panels.
Unfortunately these two panels have not been labeled so no idea of there terminations/outputs. I did find 2 'dead' fuses but have no idea what they supplied and did not fix my issue. (Or, have any idea if anything is now working)

2. I took the Drivers Door panel Off.
As assumed previously... the Passenger Door Relays had been riverted to the Door Frame. As these are still installed on this door.
(So why the Passenger door Relays had been drilled off and left in the door sill ???? Bad previous/sloppey ownership)

My Window Issue occurred at a similar time with a Music Sounds 'Issue', which was intermittent and had what I thought was the 'water issue' in the door. Assuming it also affected the amplifier.

At least this exercise detailed that I do not have to look into an 'Amplifier' issue for the 'Sounds'. As it has been bypassed with 4 x 6" Speakers Directly wired.
I now have 3 Speakers Working. (Very Confident that the 4th to be resolved) I ordered a load of Door Clips. So quite happy to remove the panels and add to the ALL the missing clips from previous removals.

I am on a roll and determined to resolve this problem. It seems that all intelligence has been removed and replaced by simple circuitry 12V - Earth - Switch.
So I need to get myself so diagrams of the 5 pin relays or use the working side to understand how this has been 'bodged'.

Under the Driver Seat...... Only looking at it today against a 'REAL' factory diagram. I realised that its screwed into a wood panel and its a home made!

Relays - Riverted to the Door Frame - Quite Neat BUT impossible to access.

New Amplifier kit and Existing Amplifier original kit which has been superseded, as now defunct due to 4 x 6" Direct Speakers being installed.

 

[Richard_G]

Looks like you've got what most would consider a write off there. How long have you had it and did you buy it from a dealer? Speakers are simple enough but if the switch panel for the windows is where the radio should be, what is supplying the sounds? Don't tell me the HEVAC has been removed too? What intrigues me is how does it run? Normally when the car is unlocked, the BeCM supplies a code to the engine ECU to initialise it. Without that code, the immobiliser is on so the car can't be started. Even when the same M51 diesel engine is used in a BMW 525d, it still has an immobiliser as did all cars sold after 1998. What about the Air Suspension, ABS, Traction Control, Auto Gearbox, Transfer case and everything else that takes data inputs from the BeCM? In all honesty your best bet would be to find yourself another car, one with a blown engine for instance, and use this one as a parts donor. Where in the UK are you? I'd love to see it for myself just to confirm someone really has spent all that time effectively destroying a car.

 

[Dtoyne]

Has the BeCM actually been removed or are these fuse boxes stuck to the top of it and wired into the various BeCM inputs/outputs?

 

[TheoR]

Intrigued as to what your center console looks like, as well as other modifications. The person who did this work must have spent a tremendous amount of time. It would be interesting to find out if Becm is indeed gone somehow. Possibly located somewhere else?

 

[MadeInEngland]

Hi Guys.
In answer to the your questions...
As a P38 novice (1st Ownership of a Range Rover) I am finding my way into it's complexities on a daily basis.

Purchased it early last year. Everything working.
Was explained that one of the previous last 2 owners had been a Land Rover Mechanic and he had done some modifications to the vehicle including chipping the engine and by passing the central arm console for Windows, Mirrors, and Locking. A row of basic switches had been mounted in the radio postion ( will up load an image later) It took me a while to understand 'what was what' and I started to label the positions.
Sunroof stopped working a few months ago and managed to close it with a manual key.
Then the Passenger Window Stopped. Could hear the power to the door so assumed it was mechanical.
Similar time the Sound system Speakers became intermittent and after reading about the door amplifiers positions, 'thought' it might be water ingress in the door.
So finally got round to looking into it by removing the Door Card.
Initial inspection found the relays lying in the door frame quite wet, assumed the relay was the problem with no output as could feel the relay clicking (Up and Down relays).
Also the Power leads had what assumed was chafing from the door card. But now turns out to have been removed to check voltages as the same is on the drivers side.
On measuring the voltages to these power leads I found the 'Down' input only being 6.5V when depressed.
Again thinking the relay being the problem.

With the door card off I found out the original Amplifier and Speaker System had been bypassed with retro fit 6" Speakers directly wired back to a 7" Andriod Radio/GPS Unit. The problem being broken cables on both sides.
Yesterday after previous posts on here I looked for the BeCM and via the Internet saw its postion under the drivers seat. On inspection it looked nothing like the diagram on the Internet. I checked the fuses to find a couple of dud ones.
As Dtoyne details, these Fuse Boxes could well be fitted on top of the BeCM. As its been 'professionally' installed ALL I can see are the input wires and some wood to which the boxes are installed onto.

Thinking on from previous comments I would assume its still installed given its capabilities.
Then again not knowing the P38 I am not one to comment.

Are the sets of Relays Standard ?
If not.
Then have these been installed as a basic replacement to the BeCM? If this is the case you correct in assuming somebody has gone to a lot of work to retro fit this P38 from Year 2000 Digital to Analogue 'Old School' Electrics.

 

[Richard_G]

It looks to me like the bits of wood with the fuse panels attached are sitting on the floor of the car where the BeCM would be bolted down and not on top of it.

Relays are not standard (other than a small one inside the door outstation). This is the diagram for a front window with the other side being the same and the rears being even simpler.

As you say, it has been converted to old school analogue but without a BeCM I'm still intrigued as to how everything else works. If indeed it does, without knowing what it should do you won't be aware of what it should do. Does it still have the air suspension? Do you get the three ABS, Brake and TC lights on the dash when you switch the ignition on? Even the dashboard instruments are driven from the BeCM, speedo takes digital pulses from the ABS system via the BeCM, temperature and fuel gauges need a digital input from the BeCM and so on.

The main reason why the P38 went over to a centralised system was that the later models of the Classic, with lots of electrical options, had relays and fuse boxes tucked away anywhere there was space. Faulting on them is an absolute nightmare as half the time you can't find the fuse that supplies a circuit.

 

[MadeInEngland]

Thanks Richard. For taking time to upload the diagrams.
As far as I know everything else works fine. As said this is my 1st Range Rover so bit hard judge it.

All dash and instruments work. Speedo and Computer etc.
ABS light comes on a disappears after about 20 yards. No sure on TC Light, cannot say I have ever noticed it. Will look later.

Air Suspension is working OK. In fact I have just had a new pair of Dunlops fitted to the front as the old ones where leaking when parked for a while and where taking quite a while to level up on starting up. At the same time had all four corners fitted with new suspension as the Back Drivers side was starting to rattle.

So it seems there is no point in looking for Range Rover replacement parts for relays or diagrams to monitor input/output and just some get on with basic fault finding.
I my stupidly I thought it would be fairly simple to monitor the input into the relay from the switch and then an output to the motor. My problem is understanding which of the 5 Relay terminals are what.
Also, where does the two grey motor cables come from? But as I am getting a 6.5V reading when I press the key I presume its faulty contacts within the relay, as what else would but a load on the 12V?
As I have 3 Working Windows I maybe able to work it out.
Unfortunately, how the relays have been set/riverted into the door frame makes this extra 'special'.

Thanks again guys for your help.
Mike

 

[MadeInEngland]

Just an update on above the TC Light does come on and goes Off.

Also, enclosed image of the New Switch Gear. I added the labels once I found out what they did.

 

[Richard_G]

HEVAC apears to be working (assuning it was that cold when you took the picture) as it should (light on the AC OFF button means you have turned the AC off and not on as some new owners assume), ABS light is correct, it goes out as soon as you reach 5mph and all the instruments working suggest that the BeCM is still there, maybe just not where it was originally? Lack of door amps isn't a problem with an aftermarket head unit as the original head unit sent a low level signal to the door amps but an aftermarket will output speaker level so the amps won't be needed. Crossovers have been fitted so that is an upgrade anyway. So it does appear that the only thing that has been butchered is the central locking and window switchpack. It's quite possible that the additional fuses have been fitted to protect the circuits as normally they don't have any, they are powered from MOSFETS in the BeCM so they self-protect and shut off the power in event of a fault being detected. It does look like it could be returned to standard in that case.

The window motors need 12V one way round to go down and the other way round to go up. That is on the two thicker wires that have had the insulation cut. You should be able to jumper 12V to those two and get the motors to work for testing. 5 pin relays are changeovers, so the connections will be like this:

Although it looks pretty horrible, it probably wouldn't be too much trouble to put it back as it should be (assuming you can find where the BeCM is hiding) by ripping out what is there are rewiring back to original. I suspect that by taking the door outstation out of the circuit for the windows, that has meant the central locking has had to be messed with too.

 

[TheoR]

Others have modded the BECM before. The following is another example:

Range Rover Overland camper build diary : part 1 - BeaDy

This is the diary of the extreme overland camper 'DOGGER' First came the CAD model, complete 100% including the standard P38 range rover was modelled in CAD and a custom visio template designed for the new wiring loom. Everything was pre designed to the 1/10 millimetre, the build was...

www.beady.com

Does your car have the original engine? Maybe that's been modified as well.

 

[Richard_G]

But that's been done properly with a custom made loom, not a big bundle of wires and crimp connectors.