RangeRovers.net Forum banner

1 - 20 of 20 Posts

·
Registered
1995-2002 Range Rover P38A
Joined
·
26 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I am throwing codes:
P1147 Purge Canister closure valve poor performance
P0451 Eval Emissions System pressure sensor
P0300 Random misfire
P1316 Misfire causing excessive emissions.

The rover is stalling and is getting crappy mileage. Additionally, the trans is not kicking down. (are they interrelated?)

I pulled the Canister purge valve but am not sure how to check it. The numbers on it are 002 93-030 I have a gems motor as it was a Callaway.
It definitely feel like there is a vacuum leak which is consistent with a failed purge valve. (according to what I have read). I saw on this forum where someone suggested using the Hyundai28910 22040 as a substitute, but it looks totally different. Can I bypass the valve? Any help would be appreciated! I also cannot find an oem part. Atlantic British is saying that no one makes them anymore..
 

·
JACK'S GRANDAD
Joined
·
9,235 Posts
Re: Range Rover 1999 Gems 4.6 Callaway runs rich and trans i

The Hyundai part is for Bosch, and does indeed work just fine. I would check to see if they are the same on a Callaway or not. It's kind of a hybrid motor, seeing as it has some Bosch era parts, and some GEMS.
The trans may be a TPS issue, so I'd check that with a volt meter.
P0300 has to be my most hated code. It tells nothing except "hey I'm not happy"!
Easy enough to check for vacuum leaks though, so I'd try that for sure.
If the Callaway is the same valve as the cheap Hyundai part (Same as a Bosch), then go for that. It's a cheap enough part that does work.
As a side note though, have you pulled the plugs to see how they look? Easy on a GEMS

Martin
 

·
JACK'S GRANDAD
Joined
·
9,235 Posts
Re: Range Rover 1999 Gems 4.6 Callaway runs rich and trans i

You OEM number brings this up, from a BMW
http://www.ebay.com/itm/BMW-E38-750IL-FUEL-VAPOR-EVALUATOR-CANISTER-PURGE-VALVE-SET-00293030-OEM-1998-/331266765543

Hyundai part that I have used is 28910-22040 Seen here
http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-28910-22040-Purge-Valve-for-95-10-Hyundai-Tiburon-Sonata-Kia-Optima-/201648744754?hash=item2ef333a932:g:74AAAOSwHoFXtHhz&vxp=mtr

Only difference is the hose location. One is inline the other is at an angle. They still work though.

Martin
 

·
Registered
1995-2002 Range Rover P38A
Joined
·
26 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
Re: Range Rover 1999 Gems 4.6 Callaway runs rich and trans i

Thanks Martin! I have the purge that is shown for the 750IL.. but that is coming from a strange vendor HK (says California) but I think it is a Honk Kong based outfit. I was thinking the same thing.. just to try the straight through one and see.. I went to an auto parts store and had them pull something similar but the pins in the plug were not in the center, and I felt it wouldn't plug in. I am ok with the straight line part. The store manager insisted that every purge was unique in its action.. I thought they were all just an opening solenoid, controlled by the ECU. Thanks for confirming that!

As far as the plugs, we put in new plugs, wires, lots of things trying to figure out the extreme rich running. Had changed my fuel lines because of corrosion and all this stuff started going haywire. Changed the MAF (twice) ECU, battery, alternator, anything that might affect the electrics.. We checked the TPS, and the control module. My mechanic in desperation unplugged the control module while the engine was running (said it was a no-no) and for a while it would downshift.. after a day of running well, it reverted, then the codes were generated.
 

·
JACK'S GRANDAD
Joined
·
9,235 Posts
Re: Range Rover 1999 Gems 4.6 Callaway runs rich and trans i

The Callaway had some tweaking done to the engine and trans ECM's, so it's not easy to swap a part over. I will ask Scotty though, who had one, for the exact differences. I know he pretty much turned the Callaway into a "normal" P38 after the skimmed to death heads needed work. The transfer case gear would be a nice addition to most P38's though!
Your shop guy should be able to view live data to see what isn't happy. Long and short term fuel trims would be a good place to start, as well as the o2 sensor readings back to the engine ECM. You can view and compare the upstream and downstream to see if you can isolate a bank of cylinders at least. Then look into that bank.
Have you removed the new plugs to see how they look? Some good old fashioned diagnosis may be required here to "read" the plugs.

Martin
 

·
Registered
1995-2002 Range Rover P38A
Joined
·
26 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
Re: Range Rover 1999 Gems 4.6 Callaway runs rich and trans i

I left the rover in the shop for over a YEAR! He tried so many things, that Im not sure what is what anymore.. Don't think he wants to keep trying, and I was afraid it was being neglected. So I took it back. It was perfect until the fuel line replacement. I can certainly pull the plugs and take a look there.. as for the "fuel trims" not sure what that means.. pretty sure he swapped a lot of parts to see if there was issues with the ECM etc. Even pulled the trans and looked at the toothed disk for bent or missing tabs. In all fairness, he didn't charge me for a bulk of the effort. It is the old conundrum.. is it worth it to fix it? I keep thinking its something simple, and not a complete meltdown of many things simultaneously.
 

·
JACK'S GRANDAD
Joined
·
9,235 Posts
Re: Range Rover 1999 Gems 4.6 Callaway runs rich and trans i

Hmmm, what fuel line replacement?
Short term and long term fuel trims are in the engine ECM. Any decent reader will read the figures. Same for o2 sensors etc.

Martin
 

·
Registered
1995-2002 Range Rover P38A
Joined
·
26 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
Re: Range Rover 1999 Gems 4.6 Callaway runs rich and trans i

Yes, the lines were leaking, so I ordered a new set. The sending unit was totally gone at the connectors, so I sourced a used one and swapped that out. Put it back together and it ran terribly rich.. It would run fine for a minute, then quickly change to stumbling and fuel dripping from the exhaust. We checked all the fuel line suspects, and nothing was out of specs.
 

·
Registered
1995-2002 Range Rover P38A
Joined
·
26 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
Re: Range Rover 1999 Gems 4.6 Callaway runs rich and trans i

Not throwing any codes for a temp issue.. but what is your thought? Runs at proper temp (when it runs).
 

·
Registered
1995-2002 Range Rover Classic
Joined
·
1,413 Posts
Re: Range Rover 1999 Gems 4.6 Callaway runs rich and trans i

Not throwing any codes for a temp issue.. but what is your thought? Runs at proper temp (when it runs).
1316, excessive emissions = too much fuel or unburnt fuel. normally the temp sensor will not show a code. bosh management shares the reading of the gauge and ecu, does not necessarily mean it gives the ecu the correct info.

on gems there are separate temp sensors, one dedicated to the gauge on top of the intake manifold with a single bullet style female connector, and the other for the ecu on top of the thermostat housing, with a jetronic vs1 connector similar to that of the injectors.
to throw a monkey wrench there is another temp sensor totally irrelevant to engine performance on the heater core pipe, don't worry about this one.
make sure you don't have "false air" entering engine, that is unmetered air entering the engine past the airflow meter. the oxygen sensors do read the output thus overfuel engine.
vacuum leaks, rips cuts or tears on the intake boot and last but not least gems performance is very reliant on oxygen sensor readings.
o2 sensors are a consumable item just like spark plugs and are to be replaced between 95,000 and 120,000 miles. very overlooked part is the failure of the vacuum line to the pressure sensor on the fuel rail.

all of these items will fail one at a time with little loss of performance but combine all and the engine shuts down. also dry your spark pugs or install new.
0300 is simply where 1316 "too much fuel" is present in all cylinders. the codes are simply an output the detective work is finding what causes them.
not being condescending just covering all the bases and keeping it simple from a mechanics approach and taking one diagnose at a time.
 

·
Registered
1995-2002 Range Rover P38A
Joined
·
26 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
Re: Range Rover 1999 Gems 4.6 Callaway runs rich and trans i

Hi 95classiclwb.. we looked extensively at the vacuum lines.. they all looked solid except for the cruise control, which I understand is not relevant. We just ran the engine and pulled the hose off the charcoal tank.. no vacuum at temp.. I believe that shows that the canister purge is stuck closed.. we ordered a purge for the Hyundai mentioned at the top, and will try that when it arrives.. Also got a new gas cap.

We replaced the O2 sensors, and the plugs.. We will double check the vacuum line on the fuel rail that you mentioned..


I am determined to sort this out, so I do appreciate all the suggestions.. It is definitely overfueling.. crappy mileage.. and fuel smell.. the exhaust is white though..
 

·
Registered
1995-2002 Range Rover Classic
Joined
·
1,413 Posts
Re: Range Rover 1999 Gems 4.6 Callaway runs rich and trans i

Things like this can also be triggered by fault coil pack(s). Have they been looked at?
in theory yes, but hardly would you have a multiple cylinder failure specially on a gems. yes you purchase and replace the whole pack but normally only one has failed.
in said case it is much more common to find a defective crank sensor.
Mz as I write the response I begin to brainstorm, may not be your issue but in the past the signal pics up ring on the flex plate on gems engine would work its way lose from the rivets.
this would cause all sorts of issues as the gap between sensor and pick up would vary and thus would the signal, another issue and I don't know how it happens, the teeth on the flex plate get bent also causing hair pulling issues.
just brainstorming.
next time the engine runs, try and maintain higher rpms for some 5 minutes or so in order to warm the engine and clear the excess fuel in the combustion chambers.
then we can start a new baseline on diagnosis. btw #24 is the CTS here is the values to test.

Attached Images
 

·
Registered
1995-2002 Range Rover P38A
Joined
·
26 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
Re: Range Rover 1999 Gems 4.6 Callaway runs rich and trans i

95classic, We pulled the trans and inspected all the tabs on the plate and the rivets.. good thought, but that is definitely not it.. My mechanic had one there that had a broken disk with a few bent teeth.. so, he had just been down that road.. We also checked the crank sensor.. not that either..

so warm up the motor and pull the temp sensor? or just check resistance across the terminals while warm?
 

·
Registered
1995-2002 Range Rover Classic
Joined
·
1,413 Posts
Re: Range Rover 1999 Gems 4.6 Callaway runs rich and trans i

95classic, We pulled the trans and inspected all the tabs on the plate and the rivets.. good thought, but that is definitely not it.. My mechanic had one there that had a broken disk with a few bent teeth.. so, he had just been down that road.. We also checked the crank sensor.. not that either..

so warm up the motor and pull the temp sensor? or just check resistance across the terminals while warm?
well it gives measurements at different temps, just for grins I have used a lighter to check the darn sensor for continuous operation, not definite test as I did not know exact temps just a sweep across the board.
my other suggestion would be to heat up water, rig some kind of holder and a thermometer, then obtain and read results at actual temps.
just a though.
 

·
Registered
1995-2002 Range Rover P38A
Joined
·
26 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
Re: Range Rover 1999 Gems 4.6 Callaway runs rich and trans i

You OEM number brings this up, from a BMW
http://www.ebay.com/itm/BMW-E38-750IL-FUEL-VAPOR-EVALUATOR-CANISTER-PURGE-VALVE-SET-00293030-OEM-1998-/331266765543

Hyundai part that I have used is 28910-22040 Seen here
http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-28910-22040-Purge-Valve-for-95-10-Hyundai-Tiburon-Sonata-Kia-Optima-/201648744754?hash=item2ef333a932:g:74AAAOSwHoFXtHhz&vxp=mtr

Only difference is the hose location. One is inline the other is at an angle. They still work though.

Martin
Got the new Hyundai purge valve and installed.. put a new gas cap on.. same codes, same symptoms. Pulled the purge valve hose off the manifold, and plugged the nipple, and the vehicle ran the same.. slight stumbling..

We did a battery test and an alternator test as well, thinking maybe the BECM was wreaking havoc.. they both checked fine..
 

·
Registered
1995-2002 Range Rover Classic
Joined
·
1,413 Posts
Re: Range Rover 1999 Gems 4.6 Callaway runs rich and trans i

have you cleaned the MAF? just a little bit of dirt will throw them way out of whack.
have you tried the trick of spraying the engine with carb cleaner while running?, this will help locate possible vacuum leaks.
what about a vacuum gauge reading? maybe the issue is mechanical and not electronic. broken valve springs, bad cam?
is the cam sensor connected? arching ignition wires?, loose plenum?, leaking injectors, injector seals?
 

·
JACK'S GRANDAD
Joined
·
9,235 Posts
Re: Range Rover 1999 Gems 4.6 Callaway runs rich and trans i

Without knowing exactly the steps your guy took already, you'll have to be prepared to restart the diagnosis from scratch.
Basic tests like compression, leak down, vacuum leak, vacuum reading, fuel pressure, spark, and so on need to be redone IMHO.
Ever get the LT and ST fuel trims? As well as o2 sensor readings?
Martin
 

·
Registered
1995-2002 Range Rover P38A
Joined
·
26 Posts
Discussion Starter #20
Re: Range Rover 1999 Gems 4.6 Callaway runs rich and trans i

UGH.. THe MAF was relplaced twice.. The O2 sensors as well.. cleaned and checked the air filter/intake run. new injector seals, compression perfect.. that knocks out a bunch of things.. new wires.. swapped coils with a working vehicle.. pulled plug wires while running.. did exhaustive vacuum leak checking..

I did not get the fuel trims.. I need to better understand that procedure, so if you have something I can read, I'd appreciate it..

The vehicle runs pretty good.. starts easy.. just the slightest stumble at idle.. sometimes feels fine.. have to really be quiet to feel.. the mileage is terrible and that is the biggest indicator.. about 13mpg and that is when I am doing my best to get the highest number.. usually mid to upper 15s. The check engine light is on.. and the trans does not kick down..

codes, 1447, 0451, 0300, 1316 still
 
1 - 20 of 20 Posts
Top