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1995-2002 Range Rover P38A
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Discussion Starter #1
P38 Forum,


I was hoping for some advice or guidance for my 1995 4.0 SE before I jump the gun and flatbed to the shop, here's what happened:

I arrived home from work (on a 95F day, commute is 7 minor miles). I put her in park in my driveway and within 10 seconds of putting her in park whilst I am fooling about with sunglasses etc. right before I intended on turning her off, the engine started to what I believe shut down or stall - the best way I can describe this event is as if she sounded like she wasn't getting enough fuel (and was therefore about to shut down or stall as I've been there before, similar noise/feel with a fuel pump that was failing), as soon as I heard the engine start to struggle, before allowing her to die, I simply turned the key to cease this immediately as I had no idea what it could be. I walked away after this occurred. Being a 23 year old P38 that I've had for 11 years, I've learned many of her quirks and at times to just let something happen, come back to it, and see what happens next, but with hearing this sudden unexpected struggle under reasonable conditions while in park (short drive, no A/C use, no strain aside from a hot day in a heat wave, no recent long roadtrips, etc.) I decided to just turn the key and let her be.
Note: while this struggle occurred in the engine bay, the RPMs danced a little and the battery dash light fully/consistently illuminated with the oil light (to the right of it) flashing/flickering prior to the turn off. (both red in color)

I gave her 2 hours to cool down, came back, and she just would not start. This is new, what could it be? I gave 2 attempts. The engine cranks, sounds like she just needs a new battery I thought. The battery light and oil light have now disappeared, as if they where never there, and there are no error codes or messages displayed. All dash lights and electricals work as they should, she just won't start now after this odd event - the current heat wave sure doesn't help.

I than proceeded to try to jump her using an appropriate booster (fully charged), no luck. Jumper Cables aided by another P38, no luck. I than called it a night, took out an extension cord, and hooked the battery up to my trickle charger, the charger indicated the battery was somewhat low and it is in fact about due for replacement. I left the trickle charger hooked up over night, the next morning charger indicated a fully charged battery, disconnected the charger and attempted my 5th and 6th start in 16 hours. For every attempt, I did not crank too long and did not flood the engine. Still no luck, she won't start.

Despite the battery being up for replacement soon, if it was the battery after my various methods of attempt, she would have started. I had a new starter put in nearly 2 years ago along with a new fuel pump, fuel filter, most of the fuel lines replaced, fuel tank removed and cleaned, the fuel pressure tested after all of this to ensure a job well done and have not had any fuel related issues since this work (heater core and a lot of other issues as well) was professionally done. I do not believe this is a fuel issue, crank sensor issue (due to the fact that the problem appears to have started before I went to turn her off), spark plugs, or becm issue. I have also checked the fuses, no issues there. I have read a few of the recent topics in this forum but have yet to draw a conclusion. Since a massive multi-repair (and thorough tune up) nearly 2 years ago I have not had any problems, this Rover has been exceptionally reliable since last in the shop. All fluids were flushed and changed during the last shop visit, all fluids are at currently at appropriate levels. 1 exceptionally minor oil leak, nothing else is leaking, I check fluid levels weekly and the head gasket is fine.

Luckily, 3 other Range Rovers are here, so it is not imperative this be fixed immediately however I would like to address it sooner rather than later to get her back on the road. It's one thing to have the typical heated seats not working but this is entirely different as she now won't start or run.

Any thoughts, suggestions or potential solutions would be greatly appreciated and helpful.
The Land Rover shop I use is closed for the next few days due to the holiday and I wanted to think about this further before I have the ability to discuss it with them.
I am not a mechanic but know my way around the P38 fairly well, some jobs I can do and others I cannot - at the same time, some I am willing to do and some I am not. I maintain this P38 and all of my cars well whether I do the work or the shop does, I believe consistent maintenance is very important.


Many Thanks for your time.
 

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Battery and oil light flickering would be down to the revs dropping too low so probably aren't relevant. Two things that I would be looking at, check that you have fuel pressure at the rail and if you have, that would suggest the crank sensor. If you haven't, first place to check would be the fuel pump relay, make sure that is operating for a few seconds when the ignition is turned on. I've seen a fusebox fail on one of the fuel pump relay contacts. Try putting a jumper in to see if that causes the pump to run. Crank sensors usually fail when they get hot but will usually recover once they have cooled down although cranking and no start is a common symptom.
 

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When was the last time your fuel filter was changed?

Richard brings up a good point with the fuse box. Chances are it is original. If you pull it apart and see any heat damage or corrosion it is best to change it out. The fuse box part number for your rig is AMR6405. Sadly the early GEMS fuse boxes are the most expensive. They run $300- $330ish.
 

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1995-2002 Range Rover P38A
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Spray a bit of easy start, if it fires up then it’s fuel related, what is your fuel level, if the lights on, throw a few gallons in, otherwise as mentioned, next would be start checking electrical bits and bobs.
 

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1995-2002 Range Rover P38A
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I had that twice on my Gems 1995 , once while I was on the road and once after parking at the shops. both times the issue was the CPS , they are crap and badly engineered and will fail; in 12 years of ownership I have already replaced 4 and I am sure the P.Os did the same in the 10 years before me. Having said the above, the last time I had simila issues, the engine would die and not start for few hours, then it would start to die "badly" few minutes later, this led to check pump, tank , lines, filter etc etc and I know the TPS was replaced but ultimately it was the CPS again. The reason not to check the CPS straight from the was because it had been replaced only few months before therefore the assumption was that it was fine , but apparently it was not. I would try replacing it, the aftermarked are cheap and take only 15 minutes.
 

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the aftermarked are cheap and take only 15 minutes.
and that's why they fail after a few months use. Buy cheap, buy twice, or in your case 4 times. Try to get a decent quality one.
 

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I .... ultimately it was the CPS again....
Not always but quite often a CKP will fail when it heats up. If cooling it with some water, a can of freeze or whatever restores operation for a time then it's a fairly conclusive determination of the fault cause.

This may well not be the OP's issue, given his car has had time to cool down, but it could be worth doing the opposite and heating up the sensor with a hot-air blower and seeing if it worked. Electronic components will not necessarily always follow the same fault pattern and a simple change in temperature either way could be enough to make them work again (temporarily).

Given the other conditions the OP mentioned (flickering lights etc) I'm no so sure the issue is the CKP myself, but in any event the above would be a simple thing to try out - and may be useful to others during fault-finding should they not have a spare CKP to hand.
 

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1995-2002 Range Rover P38A
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and that's why they fail after a few months use. Buy cheap, buy twice, or in your case 4 times. Try to get a decent quality one.
I am afraid the rule "buy original" does not really applies to me as 3 of the sensors came in the land rover box and still failed.
 

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You are confused about "in the land rover box" and genuine/OEM. Some pattern companies make parts for land rover and they come in a land rover box. Some companies, OEM, were the genuine parts manufacturers for land rover because they made the originals. So you need to look for one of two phrases when ordering to know you are not getting a pattern part. The part number description will say OEM or genuine. AB are the best for this, they end the genuine parts with "G" to show this is a genuine replacement. It will come one of two ways. It will come in a land rover box if it is old stock, over stock or continued production. If it is OEM it is no longer a licensed active product on LR books but the same original company is still producing the part in the same manner to the same specs as when it was active. They usually come in a plain box with with the proper part number and the distributors name or logo on the label.
 

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1995-2002 Range Rover P38A
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in all honesty I really dont care much if the box is OEM or not if it is pattern or not, Looking at the history of my car , over the 22 years , it replaced several times the CPS. The very first time it was 100% original, as well as at least a couple of the ones I got since they came from the dealership. They all failed and the others follow the same pattern, some fail ealier others last longer. The failure of that particular sensor SHOULD NOT Happen , the technology behind it is simple, there are no components that dry out or become old or are under high voltage or need to dissipate high power. The thing is a simple hall sensor and should not fail. when I replaced myself the CPS I noticed in one occasion the nuts were loose, most probably the failure was due to vibration. Another time the wiring was in bad shape because whoever fitted it did not do a good job leaving the wiring hanging with no strain relief attached to the connector (there is a little hole that you can use to secure the connector somewhere.) Around the sensor there is too much heat , the same applies around its connetor, that might be a factor, nevertheless that si something that we need to deal with since it is a common occurrence that happens with or without the sensor being "original". Going back to the OP , the batteries can play quite interesing tricks.... few years after I got the car the battery died suddently and I replaced with another one (Bosch)I though would be OK (reading the forums...) It ended being a poor choice , it was slightly smaller than the original and that, paired with the well known battery drain issues, made the driving experience miserable... Sometimes the thing would start (1 bank only) coughing and splutteirng for minutes, other times it would Light weird errors (windows, gearbox overheating) or make the EAS go crazy and the worse thing was when the AC would go ballistic on FULL STEAM in a very hot day despite lowering the temp to "LO" After few miserable months were I was ready to throw the towel I came across a friend who had similar issues and he resolved them fitting a second battery ion the boot; at that point I decided to buy the biggest most powerful Optima I could fit in the engine bay and all problems suddently disappeared. Another thing that is worth checking is the connections to the various computers and sensors, just few weeks ago I did a full service to the car and I took the occasion to unplug every single connector I came across, clean it contact cleaner and add some siliconic grease and, maybe it is just a placebo efect, but everything seems to run much smoother.
 

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1970-1995 Range Rover Classic
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A lot of wise counsel has already been given.
1 CKP.. possible but does not explain the slow failure 100%.
Please check also the shield and wire and shim.

2 you mentioned changing the fuel filter 2 years ago.. that is overdue.
It was a hot day.. I think you call 38 ° 100 so it would have been about 35 for the rest of the world.. that can cause a seal to leak , vapour lock and other fuel supply issues. I rember a guy who had a hot day (40° would be 104 in your money) it was in Bordeaux and somehow pressure built of in the fuel lines with a gas lock. He opened the tank, big shhhhhht and all fine.
3 there is a very nice multipage starting troubleshoot procedure in the electrical manual. If you don't have it the link is in the stickies here. It is part of the rave pack.

This will help you to determine whether your fuse box is faulty. Allmakes sells the new ones for the early lot @ £149. That is what I paid 5 months ago


Enviado desde mi SM-A720F mediante Tapatalk
 

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well angelix, a duff battery will cause all sorts of problems and is a well know issue with any Range Rover of any model year.. The facts remain the pattern parts usually are not reliable and are of no help for the OP in his scenario. If you purchase OEM or genuine you are much less likely to have issues.
 

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1995-2002 Range Rover P38A
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Discussion Starter #13
Thank you to everyone for all of your input and suggestions.

After trouble shooting and a process of elimination the problem was: Fuel Relay AMR2548.

Thankfully dodged a tow and shop bill, I removed the A/C relay and put into Fuel, the P38 started up without fault (no pun intended).
Relay AMR2548 has since been replaced as I had borrowed it from the A/C for the Fuel whilst troubleshooting - I wanted to test a relay before the next troubleshoot. So, this mystery ended up being an electrical issue related to the fuel system. Seeing as this happened on a 95 Fahrenheit Day which "felt like" 105, I think the heat fried it.
She started up right after my relay swap, 1m after, 5m, 30m, 1 hr, 2hr, 1 and 2 days as well. Drives normally, no changes, business as usual and back to normal on the road again.
I am very pleased to say the least - what could have been a potentially huge issue (eg. faulty fuel pump) was in fact, minor, both literally and figuratively.

As of this October it will have been 2 years since the fuel filter was replaced. I have only put 6.2k miles on this P38 since than. As mentioned above, the fuel filter should be replaced every 2 years (or every 20k-30k miles, whichever comes first, if based on mileage, I'd recommend 20k, the sooner the better and better safe than sorry/broken down). Fuel filter on order, easy job that I can do/have done, I will do that this week to avoid the issue ahead of time (despite the low mileage put on this P38 per year) - only had the shop do the fuel filter last 2 years ago October since it was already there while they worked on a very long list of repairs.

Since I was also slightly overdue for a new battery, I just went today to my local battery shop and got one. It still had some life left in it when tested, replaced anyways.

Very informative input and I hope future readers can learn from the helpful reply posts and my OP as well as follow up (solution). Problem solved!
Thanks again to all.
 
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