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1970-1995 Range Rover Classic
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Hello,


The truck has about 125K miles on it and has usually run very well. We recently moved from Colorado to SJI, WA and the rig has run differently, but all in all fine. I did adjust the timing and idle speed after the move.
The other day, I put in about 3/4 tank of E-10 fuel. Prior to this, I had only run non-ethanol fuel (since 2002). I made it about 3 miles and then trouble began. The rig would idle fine, and take off OK, but under more acceleration, it would fall flat on it's face. It began to idle poorly and smell very rich. After checking for some new vacuum leak or other new issue, I opted to drain the fuel and put non E-10 fuel back in it. Initially there was no change, but as it sat and idled poorly for a few minutes, all at once it cleared up and started to run fine. It has run fine since. No EFI light was ever triggered. I might add that even when running well since we have moved, although the power is fine, the exhaust smells of sulfur regularly (Cats?) and the fuel economy is poorer that usual.

Any thoughts? Anyone else had E-10 issues? I put the drained fuel in my '96 Dodge and it has had no issues, so I do not suspect the fuel is "bad". I suspect the O2 sensors are getting tired (original to the car) but don't want to just throw parts at the car, especially since I get no EFI light.

In addition to this, on a different problem, the rig now seems to be behaving like it is running out of fuel prior to actually running out. Just before the "low fuel" light comes on, especially on an uphill, the rig will lose power and struggle. I can back out of the throttle and nurse it uphill, and once headed downhill, it will pick up and run properly. I have had the fuel pump out a few times and cannot remember any connection down that low that may have failed, cracked or be sucking air that would cause this. I know the fuel level sensor is functioning properly since I just drained all the fuel and saw the level to be empty with the low fuel light on. I added only 5 gallons and the level came up and the light went off. Any thoughts on this is also appreciated!

Doug (Previously in Gunnison, now on SJI)
 

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1995-2002 Range Rover Classic
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baseline its a 30 yr old engine with 50 yr old fuel injection technology using 1980's archaic computer control, it is not made to run ethanol nor E-10 ethanol formula, worse at high altitudes.
the only way to make it run correct is to purpose build the engine and install new EFI management system.
ethanol will damage non ethanol compatible components such as hoses, plastics pumps etc.
 

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1970-1995 Range Rover Classic
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Pretty much all of the gas stations near me have up to 10% ethanol added, I have to drive 20 miles to get non-ethanol fuel (for my outboard engine).

Maybe the pump is on its way out? Do you have a way to check the fuel pressure?
 

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1970-1995 Range Rover Classic
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Discussion Starter #4
Pump is only a couple years old, but could be going out, stuff doesn't last like it used to...
Do you know what the pressure should be, I have the tools to check it.
Thanks for the input!

Pretty much all of the gas stations near me have up to 10% ethanol added, I have to drive 20 miles to get non-ethanol fuel (for my outboard engine).

Maybe the pump is on its way out? Do you have a way to check the fuel pressure?
 

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1995-2002 Range Rover Classic
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there is a formula difference between e-10, ethanol additive and oxygenated fuels. E-10 is regulated by law 100 % to have the exact 10% alcohol by volume specified in the formula, its a drivers choice in NOVA. higher altitudes do not have a choice.

Ethanol additive or ethanol added fuel as well as oxygen added, is not regulated. the amount of additive in this formula varies and is up to the oil brand and market based on local emissions and weather.

I am an emissions certified inspector for the state of Va, in NOVA. in the classes required to obtain and maintain this license they explain in rich full detail what, how and the effects of the fuel formulations on engine emissions by area.
yes the fuel pump could be on its way out but ethanol has made its mark on an old pump, thus speeding its demise.

bottom line it is not recommended to use E-10 on equipment not designed for it.

in 1988 when the OP's rover was put on market Ethanol was only an idea thus engines were not designed with ethanol use in mind, same goes with new low sulfur diesel on pre 2010 diesels, you need to add sulfur additive to old diesel engines (pre 2010) to keep them from making funny noises and under performing.
 

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1970-1995 Range Rover Classic
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Discussion Starter #6
Interesting....

baseline its a 30 yr old engine with 50 yr old fuel injection technology using 1980's archaic computer control, it is not made to run ethanol nor E-10 ethanol formula, worse at high altitudes.
the only way to make it run correct is to purpose build the engine and install new EFI management system.
ethanol will damage non ethanol compatible components such as hoses, plastics pumps etc.
 

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Thought the fuel psi at the rail round injectors is target 38psi pressure reg has some adjust under vacuum operation.

Seems odd with the fuel run out. Mine will have about 40miles left when the fuel light comes on consistently with the vehicle flat and level. It'll run clean right the way through to empty after that.

Running rich symptoms could possibly be throttle position sensor "tps", engine temp sender, O2 sensors assuming other service items ok.You'd probably want to work your way through all of these and starting with pressure first.
 

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1970-1995 Range Rover Classic
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95 Classic is absolutely correct. Do NOT use Ethanol fuel is that engine it will eat the fuel lines and several other components. Regardless of location and cost - get the real stuff.

You might just get lucky if you completely drain the tank and refill it with standard fuel but it may also necessary to replace the fuel pump and.or the fuel delivery lines Read this:

http://www.graemecooper.com.au/articles/e10_fuel.htm
 

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Don't think we can avoid it over here, it's all E5 at least so no choice of supply inside normal distribution chain.

I understand the material's issue with E, mine's on a plastic tank so whether that's ultimately better than a steel one I'm going to find out. As to changing any other components, is that a realistic prospect?

I don't understand the concern about octane rating as here it's all base level at 95 so that won't give away problem at these compression ratios I feel.
 

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ethanol contains ether, alcohol and fossil oil among other chemicals in its lab formulation, it is this "ether" which damages the components. the rest of the formulation is what damages the engine when not built for "E" formulation. basically the fuel is meant to burn easier for emissions purposes thus the engine runs lean and the down hill damage to older engines.

London, here in the US 95 octane does not exist, we start at 87 grade mid is 89 and high grade is 92. now you see where our issue begins with factory high performance european engines and fuel.
never mind if you commission or build your self a real performance machine. you end up using racing fuel...
 

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I can see that there are different choices to make regarding straight octane rating, thankyou for explaining the availability to you of those grades it obviously makes an impact regarding initial engine spec and settings.

Also I'll not offer a view regarding materials compatability with E, it's variously discussed across many forum with older vehicles.

What I don't feel is true though is the original problem being attributed to E10. Mine, as I say, is running almost exclusively on E5 we take it to France for trips to the Alps during which it'll have variously E5 and E10 in use (France is over 30 %E10) it just doesn't run any differently at all.

I know it's a micro sample of one and statistically that's not significant, but it doesn't display any faults.

It just looks like the OP has something happening there to compromise that example that may be coincidental to fuel switch.
 

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Keep in mind the "octane" measurement is not the same between US and UK. I believe 95 in the UK would translate to about 91 in the US. Premium in the UK (98) would be 93 in the US. I know it has something to do with the calculation used, but not sure of the details - basically the same, but a different number is advertised.
 

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Further to the E10 debate, have you tried the marine fuel suppliers? Maybe it is different in the UK but here in OZ many outboard motors will not tolerate ethanol.
 
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