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Wheel bearings?? Diff? or ???

5K views 63 replies 8 participants last post by  JS5D 
#1 ·
My original thought was wheel bearings and after some internet sleuthing, I can't figure it out.

1989 Rover Classic
I am feeling some grinding in my rear axle.
There is some clunks every now and then with the noise.
I had my girlfriend slowly drive as I walked next to it and the only way I can describe the noise is like this (hard to describe but..)
rubbing wet rubber gloves together makes a very distinct tight rubber sound. I am having a hard time describing it. This is at very slow speed.
Driving it kinda feels like the brake pads have 0% left on the pads.
I put the rear up on stands. Turned the wheels and they were smooth. I got very confused. There didn't seem to be any play in the tires. When I did put some downward pressure on the wheel, I could feel a bit of grinding.
Sound familiar to anyone? I want to take apart and inspect, but kinda want to have the replacement parts ready to just swap in.

Thank you
 
#2 ·
The noise you describe "rubber gloves" does sound like tyre conflict if the centre diff is locked.

If you've got a viscous centre diff then you need to verify it's OK as it'll get you chasing all sort of things to find fault. I'd check that first, if fitted.

Lifting the rear axle so both wheels are off the ground will just allow you to turn that axle only. When one wheel is turned the opposite one will rotate in the opposite direction of rotation, that's normal and if smooth suggests the rear differential is ok.

To check viscous, lift one front wheel only, then you should be able to rotate by hand that wheel with resistance. It will take over 30 secs to rotate one revolution, but it should turn. If you can't do that, the viscous could be siezed.

We did this on a recent thread which could be worth a look as that example was siezed but will allow you to see the symptoms and discussion.
 
#4 ·
So, is this the same for front and back?
My prob is in the rear.

I just blocked the left rear tire, put it in neutral and tried turning the right rear tire.
It will turn, but quite a bit of resistance. Prob 60 seconds to get half way around. Maybe more
 
#5 ·
Only because I've not tried it on the rear, for no other reason than I go to the front routinely, but it does have sound OK from your description.

Just to check, only one wheel lifted, handbrake off (for checking rear axle), you should feel a stiff fluid like resistance as you turn the free wheel by hand. If the VC has locked, you'll only be able to move it about 10mins on a clockface and no further at all.

It does sound like you're OK with that. At least you can now look with confidence for the cause.

To do a rough check on rear wheel bearings, secure handbrake, then get hold of each rear wheel at the top and rock the vehicle "across" the axle. You're trying to push the brake pads back away from the disc which will only happen IF the bearings have too much play.
Once you've done that, lift the axle and check for free play in the bearings by rocking each wheel to check for play. It'll give you an indication that further investigation is needed, and for each wheel.

If you don't attempt to move the pads first tgey can give the false impression of no play in the bearings from clamping the disc assembly after last footbrake pressure was used.

In severe cases the disc will touch the static brake caliper as the whole assembly of wheel+disc+bearings will not be aligned by correct bearing setup.
 
#7 ·
Aah, in that case then it's inconclusive. You really should be able to see one full rotation completely. If it moves 10mins and you can't get any further, then it's most likely at fault. Even though your perception is a rear end fault it's worth checking one front one as well as it'll also eliminate the parking brake mechanism via that test, and so won't potentially cause confusion.

If it's locked solid then the centre differential will not allow the transmission forces/discrepancies that arise from the wheels moving at different pace while cornering to be equalised as they should. The resulting transmission wind up will stress all of the driveline components and make odd sounds from different places. It won't necessarily be the front axle or rear.

In effect it will try to unstress itself with tire slip, which can give that rubber glove sound.

In practice, youve really got to verify that VC before you can move on else you can really chase your tail on it.

That other thread is worth a read as there's quite a bit of description in it to help you.
 
#9 ·
Well this just killed my fun.
I was thinking I was getting close to being able to drive this Rover and have fun with it and another problem arises.
I think it is the VC and I don't have a clue where to even find one.

Might be time to take her to the dump before I waste my life savings
 
#12 ·
Don't despair! There are many sources for used transfer cases. Start with Will Tillery (call him during east coast business hours on weekdays at 540-462-7353. As the owner of 2 Rovers I keep his number on speed dial), then Overland Rovers (search for them on Facebook). Both vendors sell quality used parts and Will guarantees what he sells. I've had great success with both sellers over the past 10 years of Rover ownership. My trucks would not be running without them.

Also check local craigslist posts, sometimes you can find a vehicle for sale with a blown motor or for parts and you can buy what you need from a donor truck.
 
#13 ·
You're probably not far from having a decently sorted vehicle so wouldn't give up yet if you can stomach the journey.

As above, it's not that dire a situation.

Firstly make absolutely sure it's not serviceable. I've been underneath mine to get you a concise method. Chock wheels, lift one front wheel to just clear ground, get underneath with a lever and putting through the joint where the front propshaft bolts to the transmission ( not the axle end) and turn it there.
You'll have more of a mechanical advantage there to work with and it'll show definitively if you have a locked VC. If that is confirmed, initially you can remove the front propshaft from the vehicle as it'll drive without it when the VC is locked. It won't damage it like this but you'll have no 4 wheel drive obviously. But it'll give you time to consider options.

The thing is (and I don't wish to be presumptuous about anyone's finances) there's cost to running any vehicle. We've a not particularly interesting 2ltr diesel family car here which they quote minimum of £580 plus tax to replace the cambelt as part of routine service! That's more than replacing a VC and nothing's failed on it.
Really one of these is also running finance in the opposite direction to buying a new vehicle, low entry cost plus decent servicing to give you overall figure. It could be new vehicle at much greater cost that's going to loose far more in deprecation, even if you don't drive it.

But you have a much more interesting vehicle with a RR to use and have fun with.

Sure there's some hiccups along the way, but I think they are well worth it.
 
#14 ·
I agree with RRLondon's commentary about not giving up on the Range Rover yet. There's a chance that your problem could have a solution that is not prohibitively expensive.

As for driving the vehicle with one drive shaft removed, that is something you might think about carefully before attempting. I know some people do it for short distances with no ill effects, but the Rover drivetrain was designed to be used with both axles sharing the work. Doubling the stress on one axle, particularly a ten-spline axle (which I think yours has), comes with risks of further damage.

Confirm the nature of the problem as RRLondon suggests, seek out an inexpensive replacement part from one of the vendors I mentioned, and if the Rover deities are benevolent you'll be back in action again with minimum pain and disruption.
 
#16 ·
I don't think there will be any harm in driving with the front drive shaft removed. The earlier versions (Series 3) have no permanent 4 wheel drive and drive rear wheel most (if not all) the time. The transfer case is not any different in principal design and the rear drive shaft and axle are near identical to series verhicles. The diffs are, I know I swapped then in and out of Series vehicles at several occasions.
 
#17 ·
Agree with above. Prior to Range Rover transmission they were effectively all rear wheel drive but using a simple dog clutch to engage front propshaft and so axle to provide 4x4. Because they didn't have a centre differential this facility was not used on high traction surfaces to avoid transmission conflict, the same as you get with locked VC.
In reality, any 4x4 vehicle with lever to engage "4x4" is the same, just rear plus front when needed, and no permanent 4 driven wheels.

But just as relevant to these transmission with centre differential, if you have one axle with no traction then the VC will become actively locked and all the available torque will be leveraged through the other propshaft and axle, each (front or rear) has to be able to accept the total output from the engine in this circumstance, as such being rated to accommodate that.

They even warn, as far as I remember, in drivers manual about applying maximum torque if front axle is stuck and steering is locked fully to left or right as the torque rating of the front CV joints diminish like this.
It's most likely that the front CV are generally the limitation in the whole transmission as they crack the inner track if overload takes place.

Running without the front propshaft is far less risk than siezed VC.
 
#18 ·
Hello All.
Thank you for you vote of confidence in keeping me from burning this car down haha
I had to step away for a few and work on something else.

One poster said to make sure it is not serviseable. Are these even serviceable?
If the VC is seized, don't I need to replace it?

I think I am going to purchase a used VC (if mine is not serviceable) and figure it out.

I have another vehicle. The point of getting the Range Rover was not to put stupid miles on my Tow vehicle. I have yet to be able to drive my Rover since I got it a year ago. Just been having to replace things 1 at a time. I fix something, and then something else is broken. It really is a nice looking ride and in very good shape. I am just tired of things breaking or just not working
 
#20 ·
Correct, removing the front driveshaft (UK propshaft) will remove the VC completely from the drive train. I the VC is bad you will find the car will drive normally with the propshaft removed. If it drives normally you can drive forever with the propshaft removed, you just won't have 4wd
 
#21 ·
As confirmed by JS5D it'll be ok to do that.

But as a check for VC, it'll drive ok without front driveshaft if VC is ok too. You should as you've posted loose the bad noises if the VC is the cause.

To make sure you don't get a misdiagnosis though, I'd still advise you to check definitively the VC action to avoid you sourcing and paying for a replacement unnecessarily.

To satisfy yourself, go with the "lift one front wheel and put a lever into the joint on front of transmission" that's at the first knuckle of the front driveshaft, it turns relatively easily at that point as you're not working through the axle gearing to a disadvantage. If it's siezed then you'll bust a gut without being able to rotate it.
It's a critical point that will define which way you go from there.
 
#22 ·
To answer question regarding serviceable status.

As far as I know the mechanical structure is ok to be used again, hence a return core is part of the deal. It's the liquid that if overheated to extreme fails to a permanent solid status causing the lockup.

You could loosely describe it as like a meat mincer, consisting of alternative plates linked to front or rear output shaft. Left to their own structure they'd rotate freely and have no effect as they don't touch. Filling the casing with the fluid causes the plates to be immersed at which point rotation between the two sets will need to shear the fluid to move independent of each opposed set. The fluid characteristic allows a slow shearing to take place, but as speed/torque builds across the interface it moves to solid state (non newtonian character) and when relieved of difference, drops back to its normal status.
I was informed this is a "dilatant" property, ie dilates when left without stress.

Speaking to someone who races mazda mx5 miata? Which use this type of diff, they drain and refill with different fluid spec to offer a track orientated lockup as more aggressive than plain street use.

There are it seems people that have facility to renew the fluid but depends on unit familiarity as to whether they'd look at it.
 
#23 ·
Thank you for that write up. That is very informative.
Assuming I go and test the VC as you mentioned and I cannot turn the shaft, I will remove the VC from the transfer case.
Will it be visually obvious where the problem is?
I am looking at a VC for sale and I don't know how to tell if it is good or bad
 
#24 ·
I just did those tests and it is pretty conclusive that it is the VC.
Next I am going to pull off the front driveline.
How bad is it to drive with only the rear? Especially with bigger tires. Not huge, but slightly bigger than stock.
I've read about people driving with a broken VC for tons of miles. How is that possible?
 
#25 ·
To drive it with no front shaft in all honesty you'd not even notice, unless you put it on a surface that needed the traction of 4x4.

Personally I try to be smooth with any transmission I drive, both auto and manual, as I just don't like breaking things. But I do expect one in good condition to be used accordingly, so with that proviso I'd be comfortable operating it in rear wheel drive configuration only.

What I do as generally good practice on these is always when engaging drive or switching to reverse and back, apply the parking brake prior to shifting as it stops any torque shunting through the ongoing driven couplings and giving them a hard time.

Testing for failure on another unit. I've only tested in situ so lacking experience of a naked sample. They don't as far as I know show any failure signs from looking at the unit though.
To test it out of vehicle you've got to hold one side and turn the other to replicate how you've just tested yours. You'll need to lever it but they do turn relatively easily when good. You'll know as soon as you feel it, it's just a slow constantly yealding drag as it rotates.

Is there out of vehicle test routine published in Rave manuals?
 
#26 ·
I removed the front drive shaft.
I lost the grumble sound in the rear.
I also gained a terrible moan from my power steering. Bubbles (kinda foamy red) in my PS reservoir.
Took out for a drive and could net get a couple hundred yards. Steering was ALL OVER the place.

Now what the #@$% is wrong with it? Sounds like air in the lines??
I have noticed a lot of leaking under this thing
 
#27 ·
That's the corrosion reduction system sir, mostly factory fitted but can vary.

In all seriousness, top up the reservoir and it'll be ok. If level drops the oil will foam and the system moans like hell. No damage is done.

No corrective action required but topping up the level, it'll de aerate itself and go quiet again.
 
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