**INFO** P38 Alpine/DSP Amp Connections and wiring - Page 3
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Thread: **INFO** P38 Alpine/DSP Amp Connections and wiring

  1. #31
    davewp38
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    Re: **INFO** P38 Alpine/DSP Amp Connections and wiring

    Well you may be correct, in which case you could just check it then with a meter or a basic LED/Resistor probe (?)... ie. no 'scope needed !

    However I don't think that HK would go to the trouble of a DSP amp. design and then control it via an analogue arrangement... do you ? ... plus it has to interface with whatever the Alpine HU I/K bus normally gives out.... and expects in return (?). In addition to the DSP control signals sent to the the amp. it sends acks. back to the HU, too, so the HU can respond accordingly if/when necessary.

    I/K Bus does not have to be screened, it is very resilient to interference due to the intended environment.. a car !... also a deliberate aspect of that (relatively powerful) bi-directional 0/12v data packet structure mentioned. Such digital signals are essentially more resilient (than analogue channels) anyway.

    Not sure why you asked; Do you have a fault or just curiousity ?!

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  3. #32
    davewp38
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    Re: **INFO** P38 Alpine/DSP Amp Connections and wiring

    The diagram below - from DISCO & other sources - seems to substantiate my I/K-Bus assumption above (at least as far as DISCO ALPINE HU comms. to & from NAV is concerned !). Again the connector numbers are for DISCO not P38, and in fact the DISCO info. does not give the signal designations either.

    On this basis the Alpine HU green connector pins are most probably a variety of programmable digital serial interface facilities (including I/K Bus) to link to/from a variety of other devices (DSP amp, NAV etc)......


    - P38 RAVE only shows an undesignated pink/black wire going from the HU Pin 10 (C0092) to DSP amp. Pin 27.... Thanks a lot, LR !

    Checking the control signals Alpine HU to/from the HK DSP:-

    For clarification (and for faultfinding) if you monitor this wire (Garvin) on the P38 with a meter/probe will not see the very brief data packets: With a 'scope however you will (or should !...) see <30m/s bursts of control data being sent to to the DSP followed by ack. replies within 100m/s for each command sent.

    [NOTE: Not 'independently verified' (again) !.... any takers ?!]
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails **INFO** P38 Alpine/DSP Amp Connections and wiring-disco-el-green-plus.jpg  

  4. #33
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    Re: **INFO** P38 Alpine/DSP Amp Connections and wiring

    love to know how you set the scope to see anything meaningful at the timings your talking about? let me know it would help
    Larry S
    1995 4.6 HSE

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  6. #34
    davewp38
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    Re: **INFO** P38 Alpine/DSP Amp Connections and wiring

    It depends Larry, are you now actually trying to do this for real or are we about to embark on another pointless nit-picking tyrade about 'scopes ?!

    Anyway here is a big clue.....
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails **INFO** P38 Alpine/DSP Amp Connections and wiring-kbusmessages.jpg  

  7. #35
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    Re: **INFO** P38 Alpine/DSP Amp Connections and wiring

    it was a genuine question, exactly as it was written.
    Larry S
    1995 4.6 HSE

  8. #36
    davewp38
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    Re: **INFO** P38 Alpine/DSP Amp Connections and wiring

    Well, Larry, again it was your obtuse use of a word - 'meaningful' .... ie. for who, exactly ?... me, you, Garvin, Trionic, LR, Alpine, HK ??.....

    Anyway my question was also genuine, are you doing this for real and if so what 'scope are you using ?
    .................................................. ......................................

    A suitable/similar method is shown here for CANBUS, at least it provides a useful indication of trigger levels & timebase values (except CANBUS is differential, k-bus is not and is slower, too):-

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_k-xd8TdzU

    (German;) Bus data is being captured for analysis/printing.

  9. #37
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    Re: **INFO** P38 Alpine/DSP Amp Connections and wiring

    ...Meaningful data, what else would you be looking at a scope for?
    Larry S
    1995 4.6 HSE

  10. #38
    Moderator RRToadHall's Avatar
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    Re: **INFO** P38 Alpine/DSP Amp Connections and wiring

    It amazes me how pissy people get when they try to read between the lines looking for stuff that isn't there. To start these rediculous little bicker sessions achieves nothing. Common folks, either answer a question as posted or ignore it. There is no need for the repeated sand box squables and pissing matches. Not to mention I don't need the PMs and complaints that some folks can't keep it zipped up in public.
    "The power of good is always stronger than the power of non-good.
    The power of light is stronger than the power of darkness,
    the power of knowledge is stronger than the power of ignorance."
    ~ Maharishi Mahesh Yogi~

  11. #39
    davewp38
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    Re: **INFO** P38 Alpine/DSP Amp Connections and wiring

    Again noted and sorry for any/all irritated PMs/complaints RRToadHall, I did not get any directly (yet) !

    However it is rather wearing, whilst trying to deal with the topic/problem in hand, to meet the same old destructive criticisms time and time again, eg. whilst another poster endeavours to ‘defend the indefensible’ (RAVE ETM)…etc


    Marty obviously worked long and hard on this thread, and, at least as far as I can see, I have tried hard to add value to this and also to answer any new issues/questions specifically related to the Alpine/DSP wiring / signals……

  12. #40
    LEGACY VENDOR marty_nz's Avatar
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    Sorry, I'm in Europe at the moment with work and between 14-18hour days, little sleep and no internet I haven't been on here in about a week...

    As a response to the poster about the DSP info... (garvin I think - I'm on my phone so don't have previous posts to scroll back to whilst typing a reply!). I believe the DSP control line on the Alpine units controls EVERYTHING about the audio output... DSP setting, volume, front/back fade, L/R balance, Subwoofer level etc...

    RayA had a thread/post ages ago that said that for people fitting aftermarket with DSP amp, then to make sure you set the volume at least/ over half way BEFORE disconnecting factory head unit, so as to get a useful level out of the amp with aftermarket head unit...

    Also the fact that the Alpine unit only has the front left/right wired from the head unit, yet will do all the fade/balance that the earlier units did with all doors wired indiviually, suggests that is now somehow digitally controlled by the head unit and processed by the amp... And my guess would he that info all goes down the DSP line...

    As I've mentioned before, I didn't have the amp when I bought my vehicle and have since wired in an aftermarket stereo, so can't scope the DSP line, but I'm sure if someone could collate that data, then there's plenty of people who would find it interesting and useful when it comes to fitting aftermarket units to the later model P38's.

    Right.. sleep time! Another 14 hour day tomorrow! Good luck deciphering HK/Alpines DSP signal... Maybe take a look over at some of the BMW forums, as some of those vehicles (can't remember exactly which ones) use a very similar amp to the P38's, so maybe someone over there has already figured it out... Just a thought..

    Cheers,
    Marty
    ------------------------------------------------
    '01 4.6 Vogue Black/Lightstone "Snog" -- Bought Jan 2012
    '99 4.6 HSE Cobar Blue/Lightstone -- Sold March 2009
    '95 4.6 HSE Epsom Green/Tan -- Traded June 2008
    http://p38webshop.co.uk

  13. #41
    davewp38
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    Re: **INFO** P38 Alpine/DSP Amp Connections and wiring

    You may well be right about the influence of German manufacturers and developments in this ‘ICE control’ domain, Marty, most notably Bosch in particular with I/K-Bus over a range of different vehicles:

    http://ibus.stuge.se/IBus_Compatible_Cars

    There is also a whole web. group dedicated to cracking/hacking/deciphering the I-bus, to interpret/use all those various bursts of data communications between modules on the bus and over a wide range of applications…. just google 'NavCoder'.. [So, in theory you could indeed then also use the LR HK DSP amp. on another (compatible) HU/rig for example - or vice-versa ?]

    For anyone wondering about it I-Bus an K-Bus are essentially identical.

    Incidentally, and still on the German theme, that rather misleading information from WIKI about the (blue) HU CD-changer connector designations was apparently oriented towards VAG, and particularly VW ICE, and I have now made a note to that effect on the relevant WIKI page…..

  14. #42
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    Re: **INFO** P38 Alpine/DSP Amp Connections and wiring

    Quote Originally Posted by marty_nz View Post
    .......As a response to the poster about the DSP info... (garvin I think - I'm on my phone so don't have previous posts to scroll back to whilst typing a reply!). I believe the DSP control line on the Alpine units controls EVERYTHING about the audio output... DSP setting, volume, front/back fade, L/R balance, Subwoofer level etc...
    Thanks Marty - this makes more sense than having a bus for just three discrete settings. I rather like the HK DSP set up so I'll have to keep the existing HU in any upgrade just for the bus control!
    2001 Vogue . . . . . . and, yes, I do own the road!

  15. #43
    LEGACY VENDOR 996TURBO's Avatar
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    Re: **INFO** P38 Alpine/DSP Amp Connections and wiring

    Hi Marty,

    Did you find a solution to bypass the DSP amp? I have a car that is on it's third DSP amp.
    Time for a solution.

    Thanks

    Florent
    1997 P38 4.6
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  16. #44
    LEGACY VENDOR marty_nz's Avatar
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    Re: **INFO** P38 Alpine/DSP Amp Connections and wiring

    Hi Florent,

    I had a case of missing DSP amp syndrome when I bought the car - the stereo didn't work, and upon investigation, found that to be the reason...

    I have wired in an aftermarket head unit, which uses the amplified outputs from the head unit to drive the door speakers. I've also build a 4 channel passive crossover, which crosses over about 650Hz, so the bass speakers don't get any of the HF, and the mid/hi's done get LF - seems to work ok... goes plenty loud enough!!

    I have pictures of the crossover unit I built, and bought a connector, which I wired into the speaker lines on the car, so it's unpluggable, should the need arise.

    I also ran a couple of extra cables from the radio to the boot, for the Rear L/R audio outputs from head unit - as the DSP system only uses the Front L/R signal lines, and I actually got some of the ISO pins for the connector block in the car, and wired the Rear L/R into that, so once again - plug and play to an aftermarket ISO connector.

    https://www.rangerovers.net/forum/7-r...stereo-qs.html

    That's the link to the thread I had on my stereo issues, and the story that evolved... It also has a couple of pictures of the crossover/connector which is now in the area where the DSP amp used to lurk...

    I'm still planning of using the factory subwoofer/amp - but have a whine on my signal line - which I think it originating from the head unit (probably because it's cheap and made in china...) but so far, everything else other than steering wheel controls work (which I'm planning on getting a PAC SWI-JACK at some point to get them going)

    I'll need to have the dash apart again to put a GPS antenna in, and can take any extra pictures of you want!

    Hope this helps!

    Cheers,
    Marty
    ------------------------------------------------
    '01 4.6 Vogue Black/Lightstone "Snog" -- Bought Jan 2012
    '99 4.6 HSE Cobar Blue/Lightstone -- Sold March 2009
    '95 4.6 HSE Epsom Green/Tan -- Traded June 2008
    http://p38webshop.co.uk

  17. #45
    dnb
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    Re: **INFO** P38 Alpine/DSP Amp Connections and wiring

    First of all, well done to Marty for documenting this. I could have done with his help last year when I replaced the stereo in my P38 - it would have saved me a lot of time. There is very little (if anything at all) wrong with his documentation that I can see.

    I replaced my DSP amp and stereo with a 4 channel class AB and a Blaupunkt DAB stereo with a separate USB/bluetooth interface. The Sub is internally amplified, so I connected it to the sub line out on the stereo. This gave good results on the premium HK speakers, so I left them alone. The only things that don't work are the wheel controls and the satnav audio.

    I have made an interface for the Blaupunkt stereo and Jaguar wheel controls using a micro controller and handful of passive components, and plan to make a second and adjust this for the Range Rover when I get a few minutes spare. There's a good chance it can be modified for other stereos too without too much trouble.

    The main problem is the satnav audio. The mute wire works, and I know the unit makes noise because I can see the waveform on a scope and can record it on my laptop line in. However I can't get the audio to play on the stereo when I connect it to the Nav/Tel input. Clearly I'm doing something wrong, but I can't see it yet. Has anyone got it working yet?

    Thanks

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