Non-working fobs, immobiliser and rando central locking - Page 2
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Thread: Non-working fobs, immobiliser and rando central locking

  1. #16
    FRESHMAN ROVER
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    Re: Non-working fobs, immobiliser and rando central locking

    Thanks Richard, Bolt and Ken.

    I'm closing in on this problem; I'm about to replace my door locks then try to synchronise the fobs.

    I can't find out if this is normal operation, or a fault: When the central locking is engaged with either of the front sill locks, I can't open either of the rear doors from either the inside or the outside, or unlock them with the sill button. There's no reference to this in the manual. Is this normal operation? It doesn't make sense, from a security point of view, that the doors should be deadlocked. I cut the wires to the superlock motors on both rear doors but that doesn't mean that they're not engaging somehow, mechanically.

    Thanks!
    Vehicle is a 2000 Vogue.

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  3. #17
    FRESHMAN ROVER
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    Re: Non-working fobs, immobiliser and rando central locking

    Thanks Richard, Bolt and Ken.

    I'm closing in on this problem; I'm about to replace my door locks then try to synchronise the fobs.

    I can't find out if this is normal operation, or a fault: When the central locking is engaged with either of the front sill locks, I can't open either of the rear doors from either the inside or the outside, or unlock them with the sill button. There's no reference to this in the manual. Is this normal operation? It doesn't make sense, from a security point of view, that the doors should be deadlocked. I cut the wires to the superlock motors on both rear doors but that doesn't mean that they're not engaging somehow, mechanically.

    Thanks!
    Vehicle is a 2000 Vogue.

  4. #18
    LEGACY VENDOR marty_nz's Avatar
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    Re: Non-working fobs, immobiliser and rando central locking

    I've only just skim read this as I'm away working at the moment, but a few little things...

    As you have an AU vehicle, then chances are the passive immobiliser is turned off - this will mean that you should be able to lock/unlock the vehicle and start it any time without needing the remote/EKA to get it running. The only exception I can think of to this would be if you lock with the remote, and then unlock with the key in the door (assuming you get a working remote once the door latch is replaced) as this would normally then just unlock the drivers door and you would need the EKA to unlock the rest of the doors and allow the vehicle to be started.

    With passive immobilisation being disabled - this also deactivates the coil around the ignition, and turns off the friendly syncing of the key - so this HAS to be done with the key in the drivers door, using the latch/microswitches (again once the latch is replaced, hopefully this will work for you). I could go into a long detail about how the system works, but nobody these days actually seems interested in it - they just want to know the quickest way to turn as much off as possible - so I won't waste my time on that!

    Superlocking - where abouts have you cut the wire? in the final short loom at the latch, or before this in the vehicle loom? If the superlock motors have the wires cut then unless the latches themselves have been damaged, then it should be physically impossible for the door to superlock. The way the superlocking works is that there is a spring loaded pawl which holds against the locking lever in the latch. When the latch is triggered to lock, this pawl catches on the locking lever to stop it from moving all the way to the superlocked position straight away. To superlock, BOTH the Superlocking and Central Locking motors are activated - the Superlocking motor moves the pawl against the spring action to then allow the Central Locking motor to move the locking lever into the superlocked position. When unlocking, the central locking motor moves the loving lever all the way back to unlocked - and as it does, the superlocking pawl springs back, to again prevent unwanted superlocking.

    So the only way that your latches could be superlocking still is 1) the wrong wire has been cut and the superlocking motor is still working or 2) something physically is wrong in the latch. I've rebuilt probably 50+ latches and seen maybe 3 or 4 where the plastic peg that the superlock pawl sits on has snapped off and the pawl has come loose (usually during disassembly) which would then mean that the latch would run all the way to superlock every time. I've never seen one of the springs snap, or a latch to 'jump' to superlock by itself - and it seems odd that BOTH of your rears are still doing it.

    I've actually just had a look in the electrical manual, and in the door looms for the rear doors on the later vehicles the PINK wire is actually for the Central Locking motors - NOT the Superlocking motor. The PINK wire in the pigtail loom from the latch to the door wiring is the superlock motor, but in the door loom the Orange/Pink wire is the Superlocking motor wire - which would explain why your doors are still superlocked.

    A quick wiring guide (it's all in the RAVE electrical manual except the wire colours for the latches, which are in my door latch test document)
    Latch wires (from about 1997 onwards):
    Pink: Superlock Motor
    Green: Motor Common
    Purple: Central Locking Motor
    Black: Microswitch Common
    Blue: Door Ajar Switch (all doors)
    Red: Central Locking Switch (front doors only)
    White: Key Switch (drivers door only)

    Vehicle wiring loom colours (from the '99 onwards ETM)
    Rear doors:
    Orange/Pink: Superlocking Motor
    Orange: Motor Common
    Pink: Central Locking Motor
    Black: Microswitch Common
    Purple/White: Door Ajar Switch

    Front doors (from latch to outstation):
    Orange/Pink: Superlocking Motor
    Pink/Black: Motor Common
    Orange/Black: Central Locking Motor
    Black: Microswitch Common
    Purple/White: Door Ajar Switch
    Green/Red: Central Locking Switch
    Blue/Red: Key Switch

    Hopefully this helps...

    Marty
    ------------------------------------------------
    '01 4.6 Vogue Black/Lightstone "Snog" -- Bought Jan 2012
    '99 4.6 HSE Cobar Blue/Lightstone -- Sold March 2009
    '95 4.6 HSE Epsom Green/Tan -- Traded June 2008
    http://p38webshop.co.uk

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  6. #19
    FRESHMAN ROVER
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    On YouTube there is a Norwegian fellow with a channel called “Work on P38“ . One of his videos shows how all the latch bits work. He also has videos on his Ford Excursion which confused me at first.

  7. #20
    SOPHOMORE ROVER
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    Re: Non-working fobs, immobiliser and rando central locking

    here's the link in case people cannot find it https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCh0...13mBJbPdqhCmKQ

  8. #21
    FRESHMAN ROVER
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    Re: Non-working fobs, immobiliser and rando central locking

    From Bolt. Thanks Bolter!

    If you have a Bosch, Fix the latches, fix the fobs, sync them, and be a happy chappie!
    NO way to defeat the Bosch immobiliser.
    Cheers!

    I fixed it!

    For the first time in more than two years I have a working fob. Bolt's words echoed: fix it and have it operate the way the makers intended. I bought a brand new genuine lock from a UK seller, thinking that a part that gets so much use should be in tip top shape and replaced every ten years anyway.

    I fitted the lock and saw the 'engine disabled' message on the display. I entered the EKA which was written on the the top of the BECM which is not the original EKA that came with the books. Does this mean that my body module had been replaced at some stage or just re-programmed?

    Message gone, car started up. I then synched the fob and it worked fine. Bewdy!

    I have two spare fobs and neither of them will synch. Does this mean the car will synch only one fob and then no more OR does this mean that the other two fobs are faulty?

    Thanks to all who contributed.

    Tom
    Vehicle is a 2000 Vogue.

  9. #22
    SENIOR ROVER Bolt's Avatar
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    Re: Non-working fobs, immobiliser and rando central locking

    Good on ya!
    It would seem that the Becm, door latch, ignition lock, and Ecu may have been changed at some time. You would need to scan it to see if the Vin inside is the same as on the sticker.
    They can also be re programmed..............
    Do the non working fob's keys work the ignition? How about the glove box lock? When buttons are pushed do they flash?
    If the keys do work, the fobs may be able to be repaired. Lots of threads about that here!
    Fobs cannot be re programmed
    1952 Austin Champ (Hawaii)
    1953 Austin Champ (Australia)
    1985 Classic w/ Tdi300 (Australia)
    1999 4.6 HSE, White Gold "Stitch" (Wife's Daily Driver) Sold to a new enthusiast!
    2002 4.6 HSE, White "Bolt" Hawaii Daily driver (Stored in the shed for now)
    2002 4.6 HSE Borrego Yellow "Digby" West Coast cruiser and official Boat Car.
    On springs, but not for long!

  10. #23
    FRESHMAN ROVER
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    Re: Non-working fobs, immobiliser and rando central locking

    Thanks Bolt.

    So I've got one working fob and two more that work, in that the red LEDs both flash, and the flashing speed increases as I hold the buttons down but I can't synch either of those fobs. It seems strange that at least one doesn't work.

    One is missing the blade (can't remember what happened to it) and the other key blade works the glovebox OK. Both start the car (Aus spec cars don't have passive immobilisation enabled).

    Any ideas?

    Thanks!
    Vehicle is a 2000 Vogue.

  11. #24
    NEWBIE
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    April 15th, 2019
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    Re: Non-working fobs, immobiliser and rando central locking

    Hi there. You are not alone. Through sheer old age, my year 2000 key fob fell apart. I sent it away to a Amazon site repairer, got it back (working and "as new" looking) and now have the immobiliser on full time and now working key functions. Having just spent 2000 UK£ having the BMW engine rebuilt, I am frustrated to the point of setting fire to the car!!!

    PS Land Rover want 280 UK£ for a new key, without any guarantee it will solve my problems!!

    Any ideas anyone??

  12. #25
    JUNIOR ROVER
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    Re: Non-working fobs, immobiliser and rando central locking

    It sounds like you have the original locks but the BeCM has been swapped. So the key fob that works is one that came with the replacement BECM, the other two are the original ones from the car. They won't sync as they are coded to the original BeCM and it would explain why one is missing the blade, it's been fitted into the working fob,
    97 4.0SE
    98 4.0 Police spec
    and a number of others I maintain for the owners.

  13. #26
    LEGACY VENDOR marty_nz's Avatar
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    Re: Non-working fobs, immobiliser and rando central locking

    Quote Originally Posted by Atticus View Post
    Thanks Bolt.

    So I've got one working fob and two more that work, in that the red LEDs both flash, and the flashing speed increases as I hold the buttons down but I can't synch either of those fobs. It seems strange that at least one doesn't work.

    One is missing the blade (can't remember what happened to it) and the other key blade works the glovebox OK. Both start the car (Aus spec cars don't have passive immobilisation enabled).

    Any ideas?

    Thanks!
    As Richard_G mentions - the BECM sounds like it's been swapped - and the replacement one came with one fob (which is the one that works) and the key blade got swapped over from one of the 2 original fobs.

    You can't reprogram fobs as Bolt says - but if you could find out the lockset barcode of your original vehicle then you would be able to get the fob code for the original 2 fobs you have and get that programmed to the BECM, so at least you would have 2 working fobs and only one that doesn't.
    If you weren't on the other side of the world, then I'd say send me the BECM and fobs, and I could reprogram it without needing anything else, as I have a key fob decoder which will tell me the code the key is sending out, and thus I could then program it to the BECM to get your 2 fobs working.

    There are options there... it's just not the easiest thing given the distance (though I have done BECM programming for people from as far as NZ, US, Canada before so it's not impossible - I just need the bits in front of me on my bench!

    Quote Originally Posted by slansley6 View Post
    Hi there. You are not alone. Through sheer old age, my year 2000 key fob fell apart. I sent it away to a Amazon site repairer, got it back (working and "as new" looking) and now have the immobiliser on full time and now working key functions. Having just spent 2000 UK£ having the BMW engine rebuilt, I am frustrated to the point of setting fire to the car!!!

    PS Land Rover want 280 UK£ for a new key, without any guarantee it will solve my problems!!

    Any ideas anyone??
    If you're in the UK, then I might be able to help you out. If the immobiliser is on all the time, then chances are you need to enter the EKA code to get it going again. If you've tried that and it doesn't work, then it could be your door latch is faulty and not allowing you to enter the EKA/have the vehicle recognise it's being unlocked properly - and this will also prevent you from being able to sync the fob to the vehicle again.

    The first thing I would recommend is to download my door latch test sheet from the sticky post at the top of the P38 forum here, and test the microswitches. If one of them is duff, then you'll need to replace the latch before you can do much more. If you don't know the EKA, then you should be able to get it from LR with proof of ownership (though *shouldn't* charge for this!)

    If you still can't get the EKA to work, then I have specialist diagnostics to be able to bypass all that and re-mobilise the BECM and retrieve the EKA from the memory of the BECM - but I need the BECM on my bench to do that. Also if that is one of the issues and I reset it, but the door latch is faulty too, then you'll probably still have issues as the BECM won't see the correct inputs from the door and will possibly then expect the EKA again.

    Feel free to drop me a PM and I'll give you my email address and I can try to help more if you need. I work away a lot, so sometimes can be a couple of days before I have time to reply to messages though! Where abouts in the UK are you based?

    Marty
    ------------------------------------------------
    '01 4.6 Vogue Black/Lightstone "Snog" -- Bought Jan 2012
    '99 4.6 HSE Cobar Blue/Lightstone -- Sold March 2009
    '95 4.6 HSE Epsom Green/Tan -- Traded June 2008
    http://p38webshop.co.uk

  14. #27
    FRESHMAN ROVER
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    Re: Non-working fobs, immobiliser and rando central locking

    Thanks Richard and Marty.

    This mystery continues. I have THREE key blades; I found the other one. They all look original too in that they all have the little script HiB or HiR stamped on them - it's a bit hard to read but it looks like the brand name of the original supplier. Perhaps the original owner ordered a third, spare fob when the car was new and then when the BECM was changed, only the new fob worked, with one of the old blades fitted to it, but then I would have expected there to be a fourth fob floating around somewhere.

    ********************************

    Ah. So the lockset barcode for the car contains the fob code, which is enough to enable the BECM to be reprogrammed, thus re-activating the other remotes. Right?

    Thanks!
    Vehicle is a 2000 Vogue.

  15. #28
    LEGACY VENDOR marty_nz's Avatar
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    Re: Non-working fobs, immobiliser and rando central locking

    They probably are all original... but does the loose key blade work in the glove box/door lock? If so - then a bit of a mystery, but you should at least be able to get a small roll pin and fit it back to one of the other fobs for safekeeping...
    If it DOESN'T work in the glove box/door locks then it is probably the key blade from the replacement fob - which when the BECM was swapped, they didn't bother putting back in one of the old fobs.

    The lockset barcode has the fob code built into it somehow, yes. It can be sent off to BlackBox Solutions if you have their faultmate BECM CPU module and they will decode it for you and email back what the fob code should be.
    ------------------------------------------------
    '01 4.6 Vogue Black/Lightstone "Snog" -- Bought Jan 2012
    '99 4.6 HSE Cobar Blue/Lightstone -- Sold March 2009
    '95 4.6 HSE Epsom Green/Tan -- Traded June 2008
    http://p38webshop.co.uk

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