Spring recommendation

[james]

All, I'm hoping someone can help me with a spring question. My 89RR has a 1-5/8 lift on it, and recently I replaced the rear springs with these:

http://www.roverparts.com/Parts/8564.cfm
(Performance Spring - Rear Pair - Heavy Duty - Yellow - 1-5/8" Lift)


from the Atlantic British site. They are quite stiff and body roll is reduced, but I'm finding off-road ability has dropped. The springs seem so stiff that I'm often lifting a wheel, and I've been unable to traverse terrain that I used to be able to on my old saggy (but soft) springs.

Can anyone recommend a soft spring kit with 1.5 to 2 inches of lift over standard? I'm trying to get back some of the off-road ability that I've lost.
Thanks,
James

[p76rangie]

I am not sure what you really expected with a spring lift kit. Nearly all of them obtain their lift by simply making the springs stiffer, not longer.

You are best sticking to standard Land Rover springs as you can get them in different lengths as well as stiffness. Here is a list of standard type springs.
http://www.4x4store-exeter.co.uk/cat...ry/SPRINGS.HTM

[cdsmith_2002]

The "Big Blue" springs from DAP are reported to be soft and comfortable. When I was researching springs, people complained that they were not a good choise for heavy loads, but were comfortable. These may meet your expectation.

[HUMMER H1]

i am using FORD F250 heavy duty springs haha old man emu heavy duty springs were no match with the crashing weight of the 6.2 motor

[james]

Maybe I'm asking the wrong question.

How can I get better articulation and travel out of my RR? I doubt it's going to be as easy as changing the springs, but I want to maximize the off-road performance.

What have people used to improve performance, and what gains did you get on a ramp etc.
Thanks,
J

[p76rangie]

Maybe I'm asking the wrong question.

How can I get better articulation and travel out of my RR? I doubt it's going to be as easy as changing the springs, but I want to maximize the off-road performance.

What have people used to improve performance, and what gains did you get on a ramp etc.
Thanks,
J

What do you want the articulation for. To win a ramp test is completely different for having something useful off-road.

[james]

Articulation needed for offroad traction. Whilst I'm not looking for ramping as a sport within itself, a high ramp score indicates high articulation so there is good correlation.

As mentioned in my original post, I find myself lifting a wheel in areas I did not used to lift a wheel. I have reduced articulation due to stiffer springs and hence reduced offroad ability. Aiming to get this back with better articulation/longer spring and shock travel.
Thanks,
J

[RRToadHall]

Sadly many people believe that stiffer suspension equates to better off roading. The exact opposite is true. Longer softer springs will give you much better articulation thus better traction and handling off road.

[p76rangie]

Articulation needed for offroad traction. Whilst I'm not looking for ramping as a sport within itself, a high ramp score indicates high articulation so there is good correlation.

Articulation without traction does nothing for you off-road. High ramp scores can be obtained with springs that dislocate. As there is not enough weight on a dislocated spring to keep it in contact, there is effectively no weight on that wheel to give you traction. So they will give you a good ramp score, but are useless off-road.

You can't get a lot of articulation out of the front. Over the years people have come up with multi-link set-ups for the front that theoretically give good articulation. However, they have never proved popular. The reason is the front shock turrets. As you gain articulation the top of the raised wheel angles in toward the car. Too much articulation, particularly with larger wheels, and they hit the turret.

The rear has a lot more options in regard to increasing movement. But as stated earlier, if you want to maintain traction you need to have weight on the wheel and therefore you are limited to the length of the spring.

So articulation is gain from long soft springs rather than stiff short springs. Soft springs will stuff up your road handling and there is a limit on how long you can go without the springs bending like a banana when compressed.

So basically get shocks that are 4 inches longer than standard. Raise the top shock mounts by 2 inches to cater for the increased closed length of the shocks. To this in the rear it is best to have a 2 inch body lift unless you want to cut holes in your floor. You will then find that some of the longer genuine springs will fit without dislocating, or you can get some custom springs made.

[james]

P76, thanks for the detailed response, I didn't know that about the front shock mounts.

I've been trying to source some longer soft springs, but apart from the list you provided on 2nd Dec, most manufacturers don't seem to be too forthcoming with the specs on their springs. I'll see what I can find out.
Thanks,
j

[cdb]

Look at www.RTE-fab.com for springs. Used to be Rovertym Engineering. The owner, Bill is very helpful.
I remember something that Bill Burke said that struck me as true: He uses stiff springs to reduce vehicle swaying over rocks. Matched to soft shocks. The opposite of what I usually hear.
I've been through most of the trail, offroad, rockcrawler phases in the past 21 years from stock to heavily modified D90s and RRCs and spent too much money in the process. I would have been much better off to get more professional training. I've seen guys with slightly modified Izusu Amigos and rental Jeeps tackle the Escalator on Hells Revenge and do it well.
So, my advice is get trained first and then figure out your vehicle.
None of us are as good as we think we are. Ask your wife. Bill Burke's wife, Rachel won't offroad with him. Mine won't crawl with me. I guess three rollovers and a crushed hand have lessened my rock god status.

[james]

I am not sure what you really expected with a spring lift kit. Nearly all of them obtain their lift by simply making the springs stiffer, not longer.

You are best sticking to standard Land Rover springs as you can get them in different lengths as well as stiffness. Here is a list of standard type springs.
http://www.4x4store-exeter.co.uk/cat...ry/SPRINGS.HTM

OK, so if I understand this right, I'm looking for the best compromise between rate (i.e. the lower the rate the softer the spring) and free length (i.e. the max travel the spring allows). Focusing on 'lift' is not the right way to go about this?

So looking at this chart if my above assumption is right, the RED-YELLOW springs have a rate of 150 Lbs/inch and free length of 17 inches. So this seems the best compromise to me. But then these are only for front (Range Rover diesel LH front - Left hand drive only)

If I'm not interpreting this right, could you let me know which color code for front and rear will give me the best off-road performance?

As a plus, if I can keep at least an inch of lift, I'd be happy as I've got bigger wheels than stock.

Thanks,
James

[p76rangie]

OK, so if I understand this right, I'm looking for the best compromise between rate (i.e. the lower the rate the softer the spring) and free length (i.e. the max travel the spring allows). Focusing on 'lift' is not the right way to go about this?

So looking at this chart if my above assumption is right, the RED-YELLOW springs have a rate of 150 Lbs/inch and free length of 17 inches. So this seems the best compromise to me. But then these are only for front (Range Rover diesel LH front - Left hand drive only)

If I'm not interpreting this right, could you let me know which color code for front and rear will give me the best off-road performance?

As a plus, if I can keep at least an inch of lift, I'd be happy as I've got bigger wheels than stock.

Thanks,
James

You need to work out what you have now and what you want to achieve. I like to centre my axle in the range of movement. So in the front I am for a bump stop clearance of around 3 inches or a little less and in the rear about 2 inches more bump stop clearance than the front (ie 5 inches).

You then measure the compressed length of your springs with the car sitting flat and then remove them and measure the extended length. The difference between the two measurements of the spring and the rating of the spring will give you how much weight sits on that spring. Eg. if the difference between the compressed length and the extended length is 6 inches and the spring is a 150lb spring, the weight sitting on that spring is 900lb. So say the extended length is 16 inches and you want to lift the front 2 inches. The first thing you would look for is a longer spring. The longest standard spring is around 17 inches, so you will only get a 1 inch lift from extra length. So the rest you will need to get from a higher rated spring. So you only want the new spring to compress 5 inches instead of 6. 900lb divided by 5 inches is 180. So you will get your 2 inch lift from a 17 inch spring rated at 180lb instead of 150lb.

As every car is fitted with different accessories (winches, bull bars, etc), each one requires different springs. So there is no one size fits all solution as some off the shelf spring solutions try to make out.

I usually play around with standard spring specs to find the combination that suits me, however, you could find a local spring manufacturer that will make the springs to your own spec. Be careful going too long, I would not go any longer than the longest genuine spring listed. Also, I know I have said that the lighter the better, but you do need stability on the road as well. As you raise the vehicle you generally need slightly heavier springs to maintain the stability with the increased centre of gravity. So if you raise it, don't stick with with the same rating. Increase by say around 20lb or more.

[Field]

Take a look at http://www.x-eng.co.uk they have a product called x-flex that works really well, I have it on my disco and it allows massive articulation and downward force for the wheels. The only suggestion I would make is once you have that much flex you run into issues... be prepared to replace your driveline and rotoflex with a u-joint and double cardone then replace your third with a Great Basin diff and don't forget heavy duty axle shafts, unless you have nato rims and a long magnet and a couple of replacements (then you can use them like a shear pins) I have gone through all of this in the last 5 years and at one point asked if it was all worth it for a little articulation. I have done some heavy trails in Arizona but since moving to pacific nw I haven't needed that type of articulation.