i am sure RRphil will be on in a bit as he is the auto box guru, just hold tight :thumb: :thumb:

 

I had an odd one recently where I had this issue for a day (no big thump though). It's not returned so was probably an electrical gremlin.

Whilst researching it seems the transfer box motor & ecu can cause all sorts of problems. Do a search for "Trans failsafe" or just "Failsafe" and you will see replies from others, as well as very detailed replies from RRphill who is a legend. Some of the replies sound as if they are similar to your own description.

Personally if I were in your situation and if finances allowed I would look at buying a second hand or recon' box and have it shipped to you and installed, then rebuild the failed box at a more convenient time.

Dan

 

Hi Barry,

Sorry to hear about your plight & I apologise for not responding to your PM but I’ve been away from home and my computer all week.

As Dan has mentioned, the transmission failsafe message can be triggered by a number of faults which may not even be directly related to the transmission itself e.g. the transfer box shift motor issue.
However I think that both the fluid temperature dependency of your problem and also the ‘thump’ that you’re feeling are more likely to be caused by a seal issue than an electrical/speed sensor issue and the symptoms do sound remarkably similar to previous transmissions I’ve repaired where the static ‘O’-ring between the input shaft and the B clutch drum had failed. I suspect that when ZF successfully stiffened up the A clutch drum in 2001 to prevent the snap ring groove failures this seal became the next weakest point in the system.

I suspect that your A clutch cannot generate sufficient pressure to react the torque it’s transmitting, the ECU therefore selects ‘limp home’ (TRANS FAILSAFE PROG) in response to the measured slip and it tries to lock you in 4th. Unfortunately the A clutch is used in 4th gear as well as 1st, 2nd & 3rd so the ECU has no alternative other than to try for 5th which is the ‘thump’ that you’re feeling.

Clearly the replacement of the ‘O’-ring requires the transmission to be dismantled & rebuilt but it’s dead easy to do and I’d be happy to help out in any way I can (hey, you’re only 12,000 miles away ) with advice, etc. My only problem is that I’m away again next week, so unfortunately I wouldn’t be able to help out at all until Monday 30th.

Obviously you’ll need the overhaul kit :

The only thing missing from the kit is the rear seal - 14.010/140 in the diagram (the one included in the kit fits the Jag. & BMW variants of the 5HP24 but not L322). You may also need new A clutch friction plates but you won’t know for sure until you can inspect them.

Phil

 

I read about these failures with little or no warning and it makes me nervous. I'm tempted to keep watch on ebay for used transmissions cheap and just get one and do an overhaul on it as time permits so that it could be ready and waiting if mine ever failed... but then I'd have to store it and it may not be good to let it sit unused for that long.

 

Hi Phil,

Thanks for the amazing reply, don't worry about the PM, I knew you would be busy and I am in no MAJOR rush as I am also away next week and do have other transport(but it's just not the same you know ).

Sounds like that seal is my problem I would say, would be great if I could fix it for the price of that rebuild kit. Although as I am so far away :mrgreen: I had though of ordering the major stuff and just doing a replacement of clutches etc too. From searching the forum I have seen you list a FULL rebuild would be about 670GBP in parts that is roughly $1400NZ, well the closest I have had to a fix here in NZ was a 2nd hand trans at $3800 with my old tran in exchange. And who is to say that won't do the same straight after??

Once I decide to take the box out and apart, is there any way I could get you to source the relevant parts, if you are not willing to then that is no worries, my parents still live in Glasgow so they could contact the relevant places and send them to me. If you could just tell me where is best to get them?

Thanks very much,
Barry.

 

There is a complete box on eBay UK for £750, but obviously you take a bit of a gamble with that.

D

 

It'd probably cost me the same again for freight to New Zealand haha.

I know my gearbox was running perfectly, and I also know it has had oil changes in past etc, would rather fix what is wrong and keep on trucking!! :dance:

 

Is there a part number that an upgrade 'fix' was carried out by BMW that one can check as tis a worrying state of affairs.
I am new owner of a 2003 L322 with a replacement box in situ.
Be good to know if one could check if its an upgrade or no.

Good luck with your plight tho

Bill

 

Hi Barry,

It’s a shame you’re so far away as I have three 5HP24 transmissions in my garage at the moment which I’m currently rebuilding

I tend to use JPAT in Somerset for my ZF spares (http://www.jpat.co.uk/) but you mentioned that your parents live in Glasgow? Mackie’s (who are at 95 Causewayside Street, Tollcross, Glasgow) are a highly respected ZF transmission repair shop and they’re also an official ZF parts dealer. Maybe you could persuade your folks to collect the parts and post them off to you?

There’s also Sussex Autoparts (http://www.sussexautos.co.uk/zf-car-parts.php), Automatic Choice in Kidderminster (http://www.automaticchoice.com/) and Vanmatic in Middlesex (http://www.vmtp.com/), all of whom are official ZF spare parts dealers. Needless to say that, apart from the odd gasket & lip seal, none of the parts are available from a Land Rover dealer because they don’t allow their technicians to strip & rebuild automatic transmissions.

If your parents aren’t so keen you could maybe contact JPAT (or any of the others) and see if they’ll ship parts to New Zealand? If not, I’d be happy to source the parts and send them out to you.

You need :

1058 298 022 – Overhaul kit
0734 313 181 – Output shaft O-ring
0734 319 520 – Shaft seal

The complete friction plate kit for all six clutches is 1058 298 015, or alternatively for the A-Clutch only you need 6-off 1058 270 028

Finally I would strongly recommend that you buy a replacement ‘B-clutch hub to C-clutch drum’ axial needle bearing (p/n 1058 202 016) as, in my experience, these commonly wear & fail in the L322 transmission. The bearing only costs around £6.

Phil

 

Is there a part number that an upgrade 'fix' was carried out by BMW that one can check as tis a worrying state of affairs.
I am new owner of a 2003 L322 with a replacement box in situ.
Be good to know if one could check if its an upgrade or no.

Bill,

The 5HP24 transmission was launched in 1996 in Jaguars & BMWs and a couple of problems came to light after a few years – namely the A-clutch drum snap ring groove failures and the F-clutch piston seal wear. ZF sorted these problems before the L322 was introduced.

By 2002 when the L322 first became available, Jaguar and BMW had (or were in the process of) switched to the 6-speed ZF ‘box and we Range Rover V8 owners were therefore the last people still using this particular transmission. The change to the 6-speed unit didn’t of course happen until ‘06MY in the L322.

Many of our ’02-’05 Range Rovers are clocking up 100,000 miles and beyond and transmission problems are now starting to emerge. There is therefore no recognised fix for them. The dealers simply swap the transmissions out for re-manufactured ones.

The failures of the GM 5L40-E transmission fitted in the ’02-’05 Td6 are another story.....

I personally think that the 5HP24 is a strong, durable transmission and I’ve stripped several high-mileage Range Rover units which have all been in fantastic mechanical condition, ready for another 100,000 miles of use once a replacement seal has been fitted. I don’t therefore wish to alarm people into thinking that they’re sitting on a time bomb and that transmission failure is inevitable (unless you own a 5-speed Td6 where, of course, it is `) ). I guess time will tell if this particular seal problem, and the consequential A-clutch slip, is going to turn out to be a common reason for failure on the early V8 transmissions. I’d say it was still far too early to tell.

I should also point out that it isn’t confirmed yet whether this is indeed what is causing Barry’s transmission problem!

Phil

 

Phil, Thanx for the informed reply.
Yes I have a 2003 5 speed TD6 and noo worried.
The gearbox on my car can be that old, or re manufactored, is ther any way of checking its age?
The car has done 120k and engine sounds sweet.

should I worry?

 

Phil, I actually know exactly where Mackies is yes, used to pass there regularly. `)

I will await the scan on Monday and then if needs be I will take the box apart and order the bits.

On the clutches, in your experience would I be better off stripping box and checking them before ordering? I assume they are heavy and hence I don't really want to pay postage if I don't need them. Although I almost feel like I should just do them anyway if I am in there..........

Can you give rough pricing on the parts you listed too so I know what I am in for:

1058 298 022 – Overhaul kit
0734 313 181 – Output shaft O-ring
0734 319 520 – Shaft seal
The complete friction plate kit for all six clutches is 1058 298 015
A-Clutch only you need 6-off 1058 270 028
‘B-clutch hub to C-clutch drum’ axial needle bearing (p/n 1058 202 016) - £6

 

Phil, I actually know exactly where Mackies is yes, used to pass there regularly. `)

Great

I will await the scan on Monday and then if needs be I will take the box apart and order the bits.

Fingers crossed that it's maybe not as serious as we're currently supposing

On the clutches, in your experience would I be better off stripping box and checking them before ordering? I assume they are heavy and hence I don't really want to pay postage if I don't need them. Although I almost feel like I should just do them anyway if I am in there..........

I know what you mean - if you have the transmission apart anyway it would make sense to replace all the plates at the same time. However, I usually find that there's nothing wrong with the plates as the ECU has done it's job of preventing the clutches from slipping beyond their power dissipation limits. I've usually only had to replace A-clutch plates in L322 transmissions in the past (with the odd exception). I'd be tempted to wait and see what you find if/when you strip the transmission (provided the shipping times to New Zealand are reasonably fast)

Can you give rough pricing on the parts you listed too so I know what I am in for:

1058 298 022 – Overhaul kit = £136
0734 313 181 – Output shaft O-ring = pennies?
0734 319 520 – Shaft seal = £9
1058 298 015 - Complete friction plate kit for all six clutches = around £200
1058 270 028 (6-off) - Individual A-Clutch friction plates = 6 x £6 = £36
1058 202 016 - ‘B-clutch hub to C-clutch drum’ axial needle bearing = £6

So for the overhaul kit + extra seals + bearing you're looking at just over £150.

Were you thinking that you could maybe reuse the filter & fluid?

Phil

 

Thanks Phil, and thanks for the PM :thumb:

No way will I re-use fluid and filter. Luckily I work on VW/Audis and I have 12 litres of the Esso fluid stockpiled that I get at cost so it will all be fresh and clean.

 

Thanks Phil, and thanks for the PM :thumb:

No way will I re-use fluid and filter. Luckily I work on VW/Audis and I have 12 litres of the Esso fluid stockpiled that I get at cost so it will all be fresh and clean.

Hi Barry,

Have read your gearbox story, I have the same problems.
Is the repair job easy to do?

 

Well the news is the same as I thought, internal fault.

Got it back and will take the trans out in the next couple of weeks and then start a strip down...... :mrgreen:

I will try and remember to take pictures and update this thread.

 

good luck Barry

 

Well RRPhil is an absolute bloody legend.

Exactly as he said, the taper rollers had come away from the bearing and the A to B o-ring had split!!! :dance: :dance: Clutch packs all look great, I might do the A clutch plates anyway but that's it.

1058 298 022 – Overhaul kit = £136
0734 313 181 – Output shaft O-ring = pennies?
0734 319 520 – Shaft seal = £9
1058 270 028 (6-off) - Individual A-Clutch friction plates = 6 x £6 = £36
1058 202 016 - ‘B-clutch hub to C-clutch drum’ axial needle bearing = £6

I am so happy I never paid the $4k for a rebuild I was quoted.

I will probably get my dad to get a new filter in Glasgow too and send the whole lot out together.

Will update when I get it back in the car!!! :thumb:

 

That’s good news Barry. Presumably it’s a huge hassle/expensive getting your torque converter re-manufactured because of its weight (unless you can get it done locally?) so were you thinking you’d just risk it & stick the old one back in?

Phil

 

Phil,

Sorry, I somehow missed your post. I hadn't planned on doing torque converter no, would you advise it? There are people here that do it but not sure on cost.

Got all my bits from Mackie in Glasgow including A clutches and the new filter for 200GBP all in. :mrgreen:

So now just waiting on my Mother posting them over with a few other bits(K04 Turbo kit for my 2006 Golf GTi :dance: ).

Barry

 

Barry,

It’s a difficult one. On one hand, there’s a risk of recontaminating your freshly rebuilt transmission - with its nice new fluid - with whatever has collected inside the torque converter (it’s a big centrifugal filter after all!) but then, on the other hand, anything that’s found its way into the torque converter must have been small enough to get through the sump filter in the first place.

I always get my torque converters re-manufactured when I do rebuilds but then I don’t know anything about the history of the transmission, how hard a life it’s had, etc. and also I prefer to have the lock-up clutch lining replaced. I’ve described in other posts about the ‘continuous slip’ strategy ZF employ on the 5HP24 LUC so, on a high mileage transmission, I personally think it’s prudent to have the lining renewed so that it’s then fit for the next 100,000 miles !

If it was my own transmission and the converter was working perfectly satisfactorily when I removed it, would I bother…hmmm not sure.

Because the converter is a separate item from the transmission (i.e. the transmission doesn’t need to be opened up to replace it) and because taking the transmission in and out of the vehicle isn’t a big deal in your particular case, I guess you wouldn’t be too concerned if you did need to replace the converter sometime in the future if it became necessary?

On balance, if it’s a hassle for you and an expense that you could really do without then I think you could justify not having your torque converter re-manufactured.

Phil

 

Phil,

Popped it in to a place in Christchurch on Wednesday and he opened it up to inspect, called me today to tell me he has done the bearings, a seal and a few little bits but the friction plates for lockup etc all looked perfect. Around $300NZD for the work which is about 125GBP.

So hopefully my parts will arrive mid week next week and get it running at the weekend!! :dance:

Barry.

 

Phil, you have a PM buddy.

:mrgreen:

 

Hi Barry,

Sorry to reply ‘in public’ but I can’t attach photos to a PM.

Yes, I know what you mean about these springs – their retention method certainly doesn’t come across as complying with the usual, thorough, German engineering standards!

They appear to be a token gesture to hold the rubber jump tubes (ZF call them sealing bushes) in place against the effect of gravity. The spring goes in on top of the rubber jump tube and then the circlip is inserted three or four millimetres down from the valve block mating surface, compressing the spring slightly.

You’re right that there’s no groove for the clip in the bore of each of the cylinders and they just rely on friction to hold them in position. Once assembled, if a circlip did move downwards it can only get as far as the valve block face. To be fair to ZF, on all the 5HP24s I’ve stripped the circlips never seem to have moved.

I’ll reply by PM to the other issue you mentioned.

Phil

 

Phil,

Box all back in and filled with oil today, have hit a slight snag though and I am hoping to god it isn't serious.

When I engage Reverse there is no immediate drive, but if I apply some revs it will move away.

&

When I engage Neutral there is forward drive, the amount of which doesn't seem to change with revs.

When Drive engaged it seems to function correctly, but I have only moved it in the workshop not on open road?

I marked the inhibitor unit on side of gear box and also the selector cable before removal, I have tried adjusting the cable but nothing changes. I have yet to take the heat shield off inhibitor and try adjusting that?

I gave up and came home for a beer!!! :crybaby2:

I hope to god it isn't something internal but I don't see what it could be, I never went in any deeper than A&B clutches?

Barry

 

Barry,

The inhibitor switch isn't really adjustable as the selector shaft spline has a flat on it which means it will only line up in one postion with the switch and then there's a dowel in the casing which prevents it rotating relative to the casing. I think that you need to concentrate on the selector cable adjustment.

Phil